• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

May-ish 2015 Pilot/NFO Rolling Board

RuleofLawviation

T1 Advanced
Traffic violations are a crime which then falls into 9a. 9a wants to know all crimes as well as anything that's drug or alcohol related.
"Have you ever been charged with a crime to include drugs or alcohol use?"

I can see where the confusion comes from. I hate to pull a Bill Clinton ("It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.") ;), but we have to look at what the meaning of the word "to" is.

As a general rule, "to" is a preposition. However, the way that it is used in 9a is completely in err. It renders the question essentially incomprehensible without a little imagination. Because "to" absolutely cannot be used as a preposition as it stands in this question and because its attempted use does not make sense, it is reasonable for the reader to use their imagination and replace the word altogether. While the word "to" is not a conjunction, here replacing the word "to" with "that" or simply reading the word "to" to be synonymous with "that" is reasonable. If we were to replace the word "to" with "that" it would read: "Have you ever been charged with a crime that include drugs or alcohol use?" I think it's obvious that this sounds better and I think it makes more sense that the intent was to put in a conjunction rather than a preposition, especially given the context.

Moving to context (which should be given considerable weight in determining whether "to" should be treated as a preposition or a conjunction), when looking at 9b, 9c, and 9d we can see that those are all serious "activities." Illegal drugs, domestic violence, and bankruptcy are all major blemishes on someone's record. Given that 9a mentions drugs and alcohol it would be appropriate to assume that the crimes to which 9a is referring are crimes that included drugs or alcohol use, not just any crime. If the question was meant to include traffic citations then the question would have had to have explicitly mentioned traffic complaints. However because the question does not specifically say "including traffic violations" or some other variation, then it is not reasonable to conclude that traffic violations fall within "charged with any crime" given that a minor speeding violation does not rise to the same level as bankruptcy, domestic abuse, or illegal drugs.

Finally and probably most importantly (given that this is not up for interpretation of meaning or context), we need to remember that when one receives a traffic citation you are not actually being charged with a crime. When an officer gives you a speeding ticket, that ticket is a complaint by the officer that you broke the traffic laws/ordinances (there is a difference between laws and ordinances which could impact the meaning of 9a also but I find it to be rather minor so I won't go into that). When being issued a ticket, you are not being charged with a crime. An officer might later go back and file a formal charge on you but that would typically lead to an indictment or an arraignment which is a completely different beast. This usually might happen if you were recklessly driving, caused injury to someone, or something else very serious. This will NOT happen for speeding violations (unless you are going 30+ over or whatever the local law is that says the excessive speed constitutes reckless driving. Even still, a formal charge would still likely not happen if the speeding was the end of the incident). Therefore, because speeding tickets are complaints and not formal charges, it would be completely unreasonable to assume that traffic violations fall within question 9a.

Now what is the purpose of all of this? Am I being nit-picky? Most assuredly I am, probably a lot...probably to the point that it is very annoying. However, I would not have taken the time to write all of this if I didn't feel like it would help clarify the question, ease some minds, and hopefully help future applicants to properly answer 9a. My conclusion is that those who answered in the negative to question 9a didn't do anything wrong even though they might have had traffic violations. I come to this conclusion based off of three major points that I discussed above:

1. The word "to" does not make any sense, either legally or grammatically. It should be treated as a conjunction, meaning that the crime was not just any crime, but a crime that also included the use of drugs or alcohol;
2. Given the context with 9b, 9c, and 9d, traffic violations simply do not belong; and
3. A traffic citation is not a charge of a crime.

In this case here, I think that it was the amount of speeding tickets (9) that was given considerable weight by the board. The board might have seen that and come to the conclusion that the applicant has a blatant disregard for rules and structure and also won't learn from his/her lesson. Everybody can take all of this with a big grain of salt especially @RUFiO181 and @Mav15 , but my advice for Mav15 would be to not give up on the dream. Reapply, maybe address to the board how you have matured since you received those speeding violations and how you have a deeper respect for authority and the law now, and tell them how you would be an asset to the Navy.

Press on!

*This is not legal advice. AW readers and members are NOT my clients. These are simply my interpretations and opinions.
 

mz247

Well-Known Member
Yeah to add on about the speeding ticket, I received one right after my SF86.
I talked to my recruiter, and he seemed to think that as long as it was under about 100$ and was immediately paid for, that it shouldn't have become an issue. Also because I hadn't had one in a couple years.

So maybe if you didn't mention it on the SF86 ( I hear they take it very seriously if you lie or forget to mention something on there) or maybe if you hadn't paid for your tickets yet, that's where I could see the issue
 

hugeyetti

Active Member
Yea my recruiter said anything over 50 is good too. and anything over 4's is good lol... Guess I got lucky cause I got 6/7/6
So I didn't get selected for this board, but I believe I had pretty strong stats. The reason I didn't get selected is because of speeding tickets, I got 9 from when I was 17 to 21, I know this is not quite the norm but am very disheartened that this is the reason for my non-selection. I plan on reapplying for the October board and in the mean time I will get my PPL, to hopefully show the board my determination.
If any of you fine people could provide me with advice on how to handle this blemish on my application, I would be very thankful.

Yea my recruiter said anything over 50 is good too. and anything over 4's is good lol... Guess I got lucky cause I got 6/7/6. I think my flight training helped a bit, so getting your PPL would probably help you next board I would think. Just my opinion.
 

Piposterous

"The road to success is always under construction"
pilot
"Have you ever been charged with a crime to include drugs or alcohol use?"

I can see where the confusion comes from. I hate to pull a Bill Clinton ("It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.") ;), but we have to look at what the meaning of the word "to" is.

As a general rule, "to" is a preposition. However, the way that it is used in 9a is completely in err. It renders the question essentially incomprehensible without a little imagination. Because "to" absolutely cannot be used as a preposition as it stands in this question and because its attempted use does not make sense, it is reasonable for the reader to use their imagination and replace the word altogether. While the word "to" is not a conjunction, here replacing the word "to" with "that" or simply reading the word "to" to be synonymous with "that" is reasonable. If we were to replace the word "to" with "that" it would read: "Have you ever been charged with a crime that include drugs or alcohol use?" I think it's obvious that this sounds better and I think it makes more sense that the intent was to put in a conjunction rather than a preposition, especially given the context.

Moving to context (which should be given considerable weight in determining whether "to" should be treated as a preposition or a conjunction), when looking at 9b, 9c, and 9d we can see that those are all serious "activities." Illegal drugs, domestic violence, and bankruptcy are all major blemishes on someone's record. Given that 9a mentions drugs and alcohol it would be appropriate to assume that the crimes to which 9a is referring are crimes that included drugs or alcohol use, not just any crime. If the question was meant to include traffic citations then the question would have had to have explicitly mentioned traffic complaints. However because the question does not specifically say "including traffic violations" or some other variation, then it is not reasonable to conclude that traffic violations fall within "charged with any crime" given that a minor speeding violation does not rise to the same level as bankruptcy, domestic abuse, or illegal drugs.

Finally and probably most importantly (given that this is not up for interpretation of meaning or context), we need to remember that when one receives a traffic citation you are not actually being charged with a crime. When an officer gives you a speeding ticket, that ticket is a complaint by the officer that you broke the traffic laws/ordinances (there is a difference between laws and ordinances which could impact the meaning of 9a also but I find it to be rather minor so I won't go into that). When being issued a ticket, you are not being charged with a crime. An officer might later go back and file a formal charge on you but that would typically lead to an indictment or an arraignment which is a completely different beast. This usually might happen if you were recklessly driving, caused injury to someone, or something else very serious. This will NOT happen for speeding violations (unless you are going 30+ over or whatever the local law is that says the excessive speed constitutes reckless driving. Even still, a formal charge would still likely not happen if the speeding was the end of the incident). Therefore, because speeding tickets are complaints and not formal charges, it would be completely unreasonable to assume that traffic violations fall within question 9a.

Now what is the purpose of all of this? Am I being nit-picky? Most assuredly I am, probably a lot...probably to the point that it is very annoying. However, I would not have taken the time to write all of this if I didn't feel like it would help clarify the question, ease some minds, and hopefully help future applicants to properly answer 9a. My conclusion is that those who answered in the negative to question 9a didn't do anything wrong even though they might have had traffic violations. I come to this conclusion based off of three major points that I discussed above:

1. The word "to" does not make any sense, either legally or grammatically. It should be treated as a conjunction, meaning that the crime was not just any crime, but a crime that also included the use of drugs or alcohol;
2. Given the context with 9b, 9c, and 9d, traffic violations simply do not belong; and
3. A traffic citation is not a charge of a crime.

In this case here, I think that it was the amount of speeding tickets (9) that was given considerable weight by the board. The board might have seen that and come to the conclusion that the applicant has a blatant disregard for rules and structure and also won't learn from his/her lesson. Everybody can take all of this with a big grain of salt especially @RUFiO181 and @Mav15 , but my advice for Mav15 would be to not give up on the dream. Reapply, maybe address to the board how you have matured since you received those speeding violations and how you have a deeper respect for authority and the law now, and tell them how you would be an asset to the Navy.

Press on!

*This is not legal advice. AW readers and members are NOT my clients. These are simply my interpretations and opinions.


You have way too much time on your hands....
 

Hopeful Hoya

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Just read through the SF-86 (I'm really bored in Econometrics), and it says do not list traffic violations where the fine was $300 or less, unless they involved drugs and/or alcohol.
 

RuleofLawviation

T1 Advanced
I'm checking out of this thread...congratulations to those selected. I look forward to seeing y'all in the next steps of the process. For those who weren't picked up or missed the board, press on and keep the dream alive. PM me if you have any questions. I'm happy to help in any way that I can. Cheers!
 

hugeyetti

Active Member
Does anyone know how long the background check takes? Or I guess how long after being selected that they start the process of the check?
 

mz247

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know how long the background check takes? Or I guess how long after being selected that they start the process of the check?
Mine started before, and it took quite some time. I would say a month or 2 all together. Trying to meet up with my contacts and what not
 

hugeyetti

Active Member
Holy moley, a month or two?!?! I thought it was like a week long thing. haha. thanks for the response. O and does anyone know about when we all go to OCS? I know my recruiter will tell me when I talk to him, but is there about an average wait time to go?
 

mz247

Well-Known Member
Holy moley, a month or two?!?! I thought it was like a week long thing. haha. thanks for the response. O and does anyone know about when we all go to OCS? I know my recruiter will tell me when I talk to him, but is there about an average wait time to go?
Yeah, on and off, I'm sure it won't take you that long
I live in VA and all of my contacts were out of state. So it took some time for them to meet up with and get ahold of them.
 

speedroller

Rangers
Yeah, on and off, I'm sure it won't take you that long
I live in VA and all of my contacts were out of state. So it took some time for them to meet up with and get ahold of them.

I live in DE, but I was born in Latvia. Naturalized U.S. Citizen now, but will they travel out of the country to meet up with my family mebers and such?
 
Top