Manhattan aviation accident...

[HighDimension]

I think that there are a lot of broad generalizations going on. I have known a couple of GA pilots that scared me. I refused to fly with them and made sure to warn everyone else but they're not the "norm."

You don't hear about all of the GA flights that go perfectly, just the accidents. I do agree that people with deeper pockets tend to get themselves in trouble just because they're used to having the "best" thing on the market. They have the funds available to get in over their head, but then again, thats not an everyday occurance.

Most GA pilots aren't the daredevil, risk-taking pilots that you portray them as. There are bad apples (moreso than in commercial or military aviation) that give GA a bad name, but I don't think you can stretch that into:

GA courts disaster

or

I think a lot of GA is an accident waiting to happen

edit: I have to go do some loops in my Cessna and see how close I can get to other traffic before I'm spotted...

 

[scoober78]

If you are going to use a quote to make a point about something someone is saying...you ought to use the whole sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoober78
GA courts disaster

does not equal this

"GA courts disaster when you compare it to commercial or military aviation."

In fact...you made the exact same point in your reply...

Get right!

 

[HighDimension]

If you are going to use a quote to make a point about something someone is saying...you ought to use the whole sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoober78
GA courts disaster

does not equal this

"GA courts disaster when you compare it to commercial or military aviation."

In fact...you made the exact same point in your reply...

Get right!

Hey, it worked for Michael Moore in his documentary.

Seriously, I agree with that point, but I don't agree with the reasons that have brought you to that point. Yes, a GA pilot is going to fly fewer hours, but look at the difference in the types of flying. A GA pilot doesn't have to fly as much as a military pilot to stay current to fly on a CAVU day.

I think the bigger problem comes when the pilot is instrument rated. I don't feel comfortable flying on instruments unless I have done a lot of practice in the sim in the last week or two. I know a lot of GA pilots feel like this, but you're always going to have "that guy" who tries to fly an approach to minimums after not flying in the soup for 6 months. He'll rapidly remove himself from existence and then it will be another one of those " crazy GA pilots."

 

[PU Grad]

· The novice sailor who decides to put his brand new ketch through the ringer during the fall on a trip from the Bahamas to Cape Cod and gets hammered in Diamond Shoals
·

I've seen that out here in the Long Island Sound.

You go for a rescue on some clueless person with too much money, and they are lost and need a tow. You ask them over the radio if they have a GPS so that you can have them use it to locate them. They claim no and then when we get there, they actually do have one on board. You know top of the line Garmin. When you ask them why they said no, they reply, "Well, I don't know how to use it!"

Sigh, we can help you figure it out over the radio so that we don't have to keep homing in on your radio frequencies.

If only people took the time.

 

[Fly Navy]

I guess it didn't come out well. I was trying to say that when an incident happens it is more likely to result in a death.

Basically, when you look at any/all incidents any casualties that occur tend to be deaths.

"It's more lethal to get hit with a bullet than be in a car crash."

(it was just a guess. As my earlier reply was prefaced.)

At the risk of continuing a threadjack...

A single bullet wound to the chest has a 80+% survival rate if you reach a hospital in the first hour.

 

[Spin]

Yeah...the East River....east side of Manhattan. The Hudson is on the west. The Statue of Liberty really isn't in either river...kinda in the bay...but I tend to agree. The Hudson is the more senic and not banned as near as I can tell from the FAA website.

Probably not a bad place to request flight following in any case though.

Should have been more specific .. I meant is the FLIGHT RESTRICTION going to be just over the east river or also over the Hudson on the west side.

 

[scoober78]

^^^^^

Wondered...

 

[zippy]

Couple that with the fact that the average GA pilot will not fly the hours a military pilot flies in a year in their entire lives...no cloud ticket...

Uh, what community your basing your "Fact" on??? Sounds like your talking out of your ass right here.

GA courts disaster when you compare it to commercial or military aviation.

A stark fact is that the average GA pilot flies in a year the same number of hours an airline bubba flies in 3 days.

And this little gem...how many hours is that?

Where are you getting your figures on the average GA pilot from?

...Watch out for Man-bear-pig!

 

[scoober78]

First, let me say that it doesn't really sound like your interested in my reply. You sound as though you are sure that I am full of #$%^. That's fine. For the rest let me elaborate. I'll admit...I was taking a considered "guesstimate" however lets look at the real numbers and see who's full of what.

According to the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics 30,975,000 total General Aviation Flight hours flown in the year 2000. This includes commercial use in the corporate and business world, air taxis etc...The total personal use, which likely reflects what we are talking about best amounted to 11,699,000 hours.

In that same year, 251,561 PPC, and 93,064 student pilots, and 121,858 commercial tickets, for a total of 466,483 pilots.

Combine these two numbers and what have we learned. That if distributed equally,(which of course they are not...I understand this...however...) the averaged GA guy with a PPC, or working on a PPC, flies about 33 hours per year.

From most that I have talked to (about 6-8) while on flights across the country, an ATP guy flying for an airline flies the FAA max flight hours (8) most days they fly. So excuse me...I stand corrected. The average GA pilot flies in a year as much as the average airline pilot does in 4 days. My fault.

As far as my assertion that the GA guys fly in a lifetime what a military aviator flies in a year...I'll admit, I used more coloquial evidence. From the 40 or so aviators I've spoken to about things like this...the most commonly bantered around number would be around 5-600. If this is grossly incorrect...hell...I don't know...but there it is. So, if we use 550 hours per year for our Naval Aviation buddy...and 33 hours per year for our GA friend we find that the GA guy has to fly about 17 years to make up for one year in a fleet squadron. This may in fact be less than his lifetime of flying. However, since the average age for a GA pilot ibid. is 43.7 , and eventually that medical has to run out...it doesn't seem that ridiculous a claim. Maybe a better statement would have been that a GA pilot flies half his flying life, to equal the hours a Naval Aviator flies in one year. Again...MY fault.

Now, I won't be as offensive as you were in claiming that someone was posting without the complete information picture, but perhaps a simple "Are you sure about your statistics", with some courtesy might be in order. So

Are you sure about your statistics?

 

[A4sForever]

*edit* .... since someone wondered .... via PM ..... just to clarify: I'm not takin' anyone's side in the above discussion(s) ..... but:

Any statistics can be manipulated and used in whatever way one might choose ... personally, being a survivor, I put more faith in my experience and judgement than in most stats. The stats can be deceiving and the statisticians that compile them are usually guys sitting in poorly lit rooms wearing horned-rim glasses.

.... i.e., I have nearly 11 billion miles flown in the air .... and lots and lots of hours were required to get all those "frequent flyer" miles .... and lots and lots of hours in the simulator were required to get into the airplane .... and there's lots and lots of pilots I've flown with and STUDS I've trained that are in the "big part of the bell-shaped curve". They're AVERAGE. And there's also a lot of guys who are below the curve ... but they are still "there" ... and they shouldn't be .... they should be doing something else, 'cause they are flirting with the law of averages. Would that be a statistic ... ???

As an instructor, both military and civilian, I've looked at the back of a lot of guys' heads, seen the blank looks on their faces, seen the confusion (and sometimes fear) in their eyes when they are required to "perform", respond, or regurgitate. I can sit with a pilot for 5 minutes in the briefing room and tell you how the flight or simulator is going to go ... I "know" whether or not they are "ready". So I've seen a lot of pilots, seen a lot of miles ... but, so what, you ask?? Everything is relative, yes ???

It only matters because the "average" GA pilot is an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion. Why??? Because they are "bad people"?? Of course not .... it's because they are, on average, VERY low on the experience and judgement scale .... they are airborne because they "want" to fly and many (most?) are not qualified for aviation for a long litany of reasons ... this ain't driving Grampa's Chevrolet to the soda shop, you know.

Just 'cause you "want" it doesn't mean you "get it" ... there're some of you on this board right now that will NOT get your Navy Wings. There's some of you who will lose your wings. That's just the way it is ... and YOU are the "best of the best" for your experience, age, and time of life. Some of you wannabe's will NOT even get into an Officer program. Again, it's not for lack of desire on your part .... or because you're "bad" ... it's just that this game is different.

So back to the accident. Again, we don't know what caused it. I do, however, know that there's too many people in GA that are not qualified to be there -- in aviation.

Many are called ... few(er) are chosen ...

 

[crysmc]

From www.cnn.com, "The National Transportation Safety Board blames a stiff wind for the plane crash in New York last month that killed Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle, The Associated Press reports."

 

[scoober78]

Thanks for the update...

 

[Fly Navy]

A stiff wind... wow. That's... who the fvck was flying that plane?

 

[scoober78]

A stiff wind... wow. That's... who the fvck was flying that plane?

It only matters because the "average" GA pilot is an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion. Why??? Because they are "bad people"?? Of course not .... it's because they are, on average, VERY low on the experience and judgement scale .... they are airborne because they "want" to fly and many (most?) are not qualified for aviation for a long litany of reasons ... this ain't driving Grampa's Chevrolet to the soda shop, you know.

One more time....just for emphasis.

 

[nittany03]

A stiff wind... wow. That's... who the fvck was flying that plane?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/cory.lidle.ap/index.html
There's the full story. How the heck do you daydream your way into a situation like that? Dual-piloted to boot? I suppose A4s hit it on the head . . .