lostSeaBee
SeaBee Memorial
Clarification, concerning the Blue and Gold program. Do you mean BGO participants, volunteers that help with entry into the Academy, or do you mean commissioned officers from the Blue and Gold program will be excluded?
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MAJOR IRR Policy Change...
- Thread starter Sam I am
- Start date
lostSeaBee
SeaBee Memorial
I'm also thinking about calling a Air National Guard recruiter and finishing out my 4 or 5 years there. Any thoughts?
lostSeaBee
SeaBee Memorial
There is an ANG base 10 minutes from my house and they have a civil engineer wing. Also, as a consulting engineer, I have designed several of their facilities. The nearest AFR base is an hour away and the same location as the NOSC. I do a lot of work for the AF, so I could be swayed.
Wow! This turned into quite a ruckus.
Hanging out on this board over the last few years, I've figured out that there's a "Hierarchy of Hate" within the Navy. It's pretty much as follows and if you're listed after a group you can pretty much count on the fact that someone in the previous group(s) "hates" you: Active Duty hates FTS who hates Sel-Res who hates IRR. Punchline: everyone hates IRR. I also understand this isn't really hate...it's just folks marginalizing other folks and it's completely fair to say that IRR types are marginalized the most. I'm not sure why the hate flows so openly from some groups towards others, but it's friendly fire at it's worst. People fail to see what value the IRR has and that's fine. But to spell it out, the IRR is/was insurance. Nothing more, nothing less. Different people place different values on that insurance as this thread clearly illustrates. But, the fact remains that at some point in the past, folks who were decision makers thought the insurance was so valuable that it was worth offering the ability to retain rank, privilege, some benefits, and some retirement, but no "pay" in the traditional sense. Fair enough. For those who capitalized on the past policy and captured the full market value of providing insurance, bravo. For those who poo-poo that, your actions say more about you than the person who is taking care of their business in the IRR. As with any market, it's never static. In this case, the insurance isn't as valuable or as necessary as it was once thought to be. For the AD & Sel-Res who are scratching their heads and mumbling something like, "Wait...I thought Sel-Res was the insurance?" You're not...you're the Temp Agency. So far, we haven't run out of Temps.
One interesting tidbit I picked up at Naval War College while pursuing my JPME qual while simultaneously providing no value to the Navy or my country was that during WWII, the Japanese pretty much ran out of pilots. Thus, they came up with the notion of Divine Wind. I'll bet they would have loved to have a few IRR types to dial up...Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze. Now, there probably won't be another war like that one...but I'd never say never.
The policy is clearly a fiscal move and when you have to make cuts, they need to come from somewhere. But for those AD/Sel-Res types looking down their nose and saying "About time, good riddance...such a scam." I hope you/we can afford to be an uninsured force.
Hanging out on this board over the last few years, I've figured out that there's a "Hierarchy of Hate" within the Navy. It's pretty much as follows and if you're listed after a group you can pretty much count on the fact that someone in the previous group(s) "hates" you: Active Duty hates FTS who hates Sel-Res who hates IRR. Punchline: everyone hates IRR. I also understand this isn't really hate...it's just folks marginalizing other folks and it's completely fair to say that IRR types are marginalized the most. I'm not sure why the hate flows so openly from some groups towards others, but it's friendly fire at it's worst. People fail to see what value the IRR has and that's fine. But to spell it out, the IRR is/was insurance. Nothing more, nothing less. Different people place different values on that insurance as this thread clearly illustrates. But, the fact remains that at some point in the past, folks who were decision makers thought the insurance was so valuable that it was worth offering the ability to retain rank, privilege, some benefits, and some retirement, but no "pay" in the traditional sense. Fair enough. For those who capitalized on the past policy and captured the full market value of providing insurance, bravo. For those who poo-poo that, your actions say more about you than the person who is taking care of their business in the IRR. As with any market, it's never static. In this case, the insurance isn't as valuable or as necessary as it was once thought to be. For the AD & Sel-Res who are scratching their heads and mumbling something like, "Wait...I thought Sel-Res was the insurance?" You're not...you're the Temp Agency. So far, we haven't run out of Temps.
One interesting tidbit I picked up at Naval War College while pursuing my JPME qual while simultaneously providing no value to the Navy or my country was that during WWII, the Japanese pretty much ran out of pilots. Thus, they came up with the notion of Divine Wind. I'll bet they would have loved to have a few IRR types to dial up...Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze. Now, there probably won't be another war like that one...but I'd never say never.
The policy is clearly a fiscal move and when you have to make cuts, they need to come from somewhere. But for those AD/Sel-Res types looking down their nose and saying "About time, good riddance...such a scam." I hope you/we can afford to be an uninsured force.
The insurance will still be there, the only thing different now is IRR members won't be able to earn retirement by doing correspondence courses. That is pretty much all. VTU? BGO? Or just hanging your uniform in a closet and getting ready to squeeze back in it if the Mongol Horde comes racing across the steppes? All of them still options for folks in the reserve and big Navy to call on if necessary.
Fair point...now we can all debate whether we're under insured. Pretty sure Flash says "over". And the use of "squeeze" is perfect.
Should the worst case scenario happen and as an O3E I get 2XFOS'ed out at 18 years, do I at least still have the option to go enlisted in SELRES/VTU and still retire at 20?
atmahan
... facility for offence.
The maximum allowed age for enlisting in the Navy is 34.
The Air Force allows up to 39 and the Army is 35.
vxc961
.
Two things here:
1). 18 satisfactory for retirement years is the magic number. Once you get to 17.5 or so years, PERs will send you a letter saying “looks like youll hit 20 years commissioned service soon, and at that point you’ll have 18 good years; we will give you three years to get those two good years, so don’t screw up”. You can search this forum and get more details and references.
2). I had a buddy in my unit hit 20 years with just 17 good years, and get the boot. He enlisted in the air guard as an E5 on a five year enlistment and punched in three years, retiring at his highest rank. I thought our reinlistment code prevented going enlisted, and I don’t understand how three years in the air guard (state retirement, right?) counts toward your federal/mil retirement...but it did.
1). 18 satisfactory for retirement years is the magic number. Once you get to 17.5 or so years, PERs will send you a letter saying “looks like youll hit 20 years commissioned service soon, and at that point you’ll have 18 good years; we will give you three years to get those two good years, so don’t screw up”. You can search this forum and get more details and references.
2). I had a buddy in my unit hit 20 years with just 17 good years, and get the boot. He enlisted in the air guard as an E5 on a five year enlistment and punched in three years, retiring at his highest rank. I thought our reinlistment code prevented going enlisted, and I don’t understand how three years in the air guard (state retirement, right?) counts toward your federal/mil retirement...but it did.
I'd say over and under. The Navy could do A LOT better with its reservists, SELRES and IRR, to better support the Navy, the military and the country at large. There are efforts to do so like the civilian skills survey but they aren't utilized well, or at all in some cases. I saw it first-hand on my MOB when we could have used reservists with particular sets of skills but we ended up with random folks.
Then you also have situations like the Norfolk NOSC that was short ~1000 folks for the billets assigned to it as of 3 years ago while a few NOSC's have scores or even hundreds of more folks than they have billets. There are limits to what you could do but a little more investment by the Navy could pay dividends but as has been amply demonstrated recently that is way low on the Navy's priority list.
I heard that story from a guy who knew someone who did exactly that about 8-10 years ago, I wonder if it is the same person. As for the Guard and going from officer to enlisted, I've known of a few folks who have done that and it seems the Guard can do exceptions to the rule if they want.
I wonder if the USAF will draw from its IRR for this: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ed-pilots-address-serious-shortage/785344001/
That's because we've got fleet concentration areas with plenty of units which can support Big Navy's mission set . . . but not everyone lives in a fleet concentration area. Some people are willing to commute to a job they want, but other people aren't. In which case, you're stuck with whatever pickings are available at the NOSCs you are willing to commute to, or else cross-assigning.
And if you cross-assign, you're rolling the dice as to (a) whether there will be IDTT funds available, and (b) that your UMUIC gives enough of a shit to be serious about its cross-assigned program. Otherwise, have fun in your OSU, or being TRUIC-shifted to some random-ass unit that has nothing to do with your skill set.
If you want better utilization of those billets, perhaps Big Reserves should consider moving them to where the people are. When I went through NRUM, they showed a table with the the size of all the OSUs. Biggest one? NOSC New York City. Ye gads, the poor OIC; it's huge. Surprise, surprise. Big city away from any fleet concentration area.
I seem to recall that in the 50s, they went so far as to scatter mini-dets of jets across the country so aviators could stay current. Not saying that's necessarily reasonable today, but perhaps we could think about whether we need to park so many units co-located with their AC counterparts, or det them out to various NOSCs for the stupid readiness games, and just be willing to eat the travel costs for AT/ADT supporting the AC.
This is not applicable to those like myself who are prior enlisted Mustang officers.
There is a specific policy that allows reversion to an enlisted rank of equivalent TIS, etc. that you had at your offer rank if you are between 16 and 18 years when you are 2XFOS to still be able to retire. All of the policies i've seen continue to state active duty or active federal service and it remains unclear how this impacts officers already in the reserves when they are 2XFOS.
"WHAT IF I AM A LT OR LCDR (WHO WAS PRIOR ENLISTED) IN A GROUP
THAT IS NOT OFFERED CONTINUATION, BUT I HAVE BETWEEN 16 - 18 YEARS
OF SERVICE AND STILL WANT TO RETIRE FROM ACTIVE DUTY?
Contact the Officer Favorable Resignations/Separations Branch (PERS-834F) at COM
901-874-2085/2095 or DSN 882-2085/2095 for more information on the option to
revert to an enlisted status."
http://www.vr61.navy.mil/bupers-npc...ed Questions About Continuation and 2XFOS.pdf
"Resign and Re-Enlist iaw CNO Policy Memo
Active duty Lieutenant and Lieutenant Junior Grade officers with prior enlisted service that have twice failed of selection for promotion to Lieutenant Commander or Lieutenant may be eligible to resign and re-enlist (informally called "reversion") in order to reach retirement eligibility. These officers must have at least 16 years, but less than 18 years of active military service on the date they would be separated, to be eligible for reversion. For further information on eligibility requirements for officer reversion please read the CNO Policy Memo from Dec 1990. To verify your eligibility contact PERS-834F, Officer Separations, at (901) 874-2085/2095."
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/generalboardinfo/pages/statusnonselect.aspx
The key word here in Navy PERS lingo is "reversion" which means reverting from officer to enlisted. I've found policies indicating that if you were prior enlisted, you will likely revert to an E-6 and be allowed to retire, unless you were E-7 or above at time of commission then you'll be able to revert to that rank.
While the National Guard, etc. seem to be options for officers who are 2XFOS with above 16+ years, it is apparent that without a break in service we can simply just revert to being a Navy E-6 and still retire, at least from the research i've done in the last 24 hours of pouring over Navy regs, policies, and federal laws.
In terms of sanctuary at 18 years, according to federal law, it appears that O3's are also entitled to sancturary at 18 years and not just O4s:
"officers in the grades of Lieutenant Commander and below who have not been selected for promotion 2 or more times, and are within two years of qualifying for retirement on the first day of the seventh month following approval of a promotion board's results, will be retained until retirement eligible per 10 U.S.C. § 632 : US Code - Section 632. This circumstance is informally known as "sanctuary."
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/generalboardinfo/pages/statusnonselect.aspx
....So based on all of this, it does seem that retirement is almost guaranteed even if I 2XFOS -- the question is just a matter of if I can reach sancturary as an O3-E at 18 years or get 2XFOS'd at 17 years and "revert" to an E-6 and just retire that way.
I'll call PERS on Monday to get clarification of all this and will report back what they said.