M-16 vs M-4 vs What?

[Fly Navy]

Well yeah, 9mm pretty much blows period. But what about the .45?

5.56mm still blows it out of the water. Typical military pistol rounds can't even approach the energy levels and effectiveness of a rifle round.

Edit: Like squeeze says below, nothing wrong with 9mm by itself. I use 9mm as my choice of defense pistol... in a good JHP it is about equal with a .40 or .45. It's when you get to comparing ball loads that it gets crappy.

 

[squeeze]

Well yeah, 9mm pretty much blows period. But what about the .45?

There is nothing inherently wrong with 9mm. 9mm ball ammo is a bad combo on the other hand.

 

[Fly Navy]

No kidding. but at CBQ distances, is a rifle cartridge necessary? Plus, like I said, you'd have commonality with your sidearm, which means one type of ammo.

Like squeeze said... body armor and unknown threat.

And if I'm doing it right, the .45 ACP delivers more ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle than the .223 Remington. I got the charts here (if I'm reading this stuff wrong, let me know please!):
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm

Let's look at the Winchester Q3131A 5.56mm load, which is a M193 load (and also the load I like to use in my AR-15s )

Muzzle: 3270 fps, 1306 lbs-ft

Now let's look at the Winchester RA45T Ranger-T .45 load, something you won't see in the military, but it's a very well respected JHP. It has more energy than a FMJ load.

Muzzle: 885 fps, 400 lbs-ft

As you can see, they aren't even close.

And as to Squeeze's post: correct me if I'm wrong, but we're only officially allowed to use ball, FMJ ammo in the military because of international agreement correct?

You can use JHP on terrorists as they are not signatories of the Hague Convention. It is also allowed to "prevent overpenetration in the event of hostages present" or whatnot.

 

[Fly Navy]

Yeah I was reading those charts wrong, that's why I got rid of that one. Sorry about that....

No problem, it's education for all

 

[squeeze]

And as to Squeeze's post: correct me if I'm wrong, but we're only officially allowed to use ball, FMJ ammo in the military because of international agreement correct?

You are wrong. Urban legend. The US is not a party to the Hague Convention nor Protocol I of the Geneva Convention -- both of which contain the "superfluous suffering" language. We do follow it generally though for PR, cost, and commonality reasons. The primary sniper round of choice is a hollowpoint.

 

[Fly Navy]

You are wrong. Urban legend. The US is not a party to the Hague Convention nor Protocol I of the Geneva Convention -- both of which contain the "superfluous suffering" language. We do follow it generally though for PR, cost, and commonality reasons. The primary sniper round of choice is a hollowpoint.

Interesting, I thought we were a signatory? Learn something new every day.

 

[Fly Navy]

Ok, question then. Because, having only transited the Suez and never setting foot on the sand, what is to be said about the M4/M16 reliability in the desert? Are troops having trouble keeping them clean and working with the sand? I know keeping the helos clean and flying is a nightmare in the fine sand.

As far as I know, the M-16 has been around long enough that they KNOW how to keep it clean.

And to add to that... Isn't Afghanistan and completely different animal where the range of the M14 is a much desired trait? I imagine there to be much less urban combat than Iraq. From what I've read, the Afghani's themselves faired better than the Russians there due in part to the differences in their rifles.

That's why the Marines were smart to stick with the 20" M-16.

The Afghani's in the Soviet-Afghan war were way out of date. Some of them used rifles as old as muskets. It wasn't their long-arms that helped them... knowledge of terrain and will power.

 

[Fly Navy]

The primary sniper round of choice is a hollowpoint.

A by-product of bullet design. Hollowpoint = stability in those bullets.

 

[A4sForever]

....the Afghani's themselves faired better than the Russians there due in part to the differences in their rifles.

... and due in LARGE part to support, training, and "participation" from blue-eyed emmissaries of "UNCLE".

 

[Old NFO]

Actually the Marines I've talked to at the range at Quantico that just got back from the sandbox complained, again...still... about the issues with the M-16 and variants in the sand. Constant cleaning required. Lots of the troops were scrounging AK's and using them. There was "plenty" of free ammo around, especially when they were clearing the houses in Falluja.