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Is it easy and possible to go from Navy/MC aviator -> AirNG/AFR AGR pilot?

P

propanelord

New Member
Good day, ladies and gentlemen! Thank you for taking the time to read my post today!

If a Marine Corps company grade, or whatever rank they find themselves at around end of initial contract, with no negative paperwork, and a good average track-record, as a fixed or rotary wing pilot chooses not to career designate, and is finishing their initial contractual obligation, what is the chance they can waltz right into an AGR Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard pilot slot? For those of you who don't get out into the joint world very much, you could explain what Army/Air-Force call AGR as being very similar to what we in the MC/Navy call "I&I". Obviously, I assume that said former Marine (new-Airman) would be forced to attend training, and/or potentially be trained on a whole new airframe... I'm not worried about those minor obstacles. Would the lat move even be allowed to happen at all? Do inter-service transfers typically reduce rank? For all I know, they are killing for former active duty Navy/MC pilots, or they could be so flush with prior active duty Regular-Air-Force and DSG/TR (selected reserve air force) pilots, that they would never in a million years entertain this... Also, even if you can get AGR slot in the initial transfer, can you stay there in AGR status for seven or ten years? Or are AGR contracts only 3 years, and they don't always allow you to renew them? If they force you from AGR to DSG/TR, then you can't always finish an active duty retirement necessarily...

Obviously, no one can predict the future, and things ten years ago were very different, and they will be very different eleven years from now. But can we please take a stab at that question?

I am an enlisted Marine.

Thank you so much!
 
I an AD USMC to Michigan ANG transition who is a career status AGR in the Mi ANG. I'm also the rated pilot hiring manager for my squadron.
Three things, one is that there is not a squadron out there who is going to hire you directly into an AGR job. They'll hire you as a part-time DSG, and then see how you fit in. AGR jobs are generally boarded, and the requirements are generally written for specific people in mind. It is not uncommon for an AGR spot to be released and to only have a couple of people eligible to apply. For instance, when I applied for my AGR I had been in the unit for a couple years, and the job was written for an O-4 11f (fighter) qualified MQ-9 pilot, with evaluator experience, was a graduate of the USAF or USN Aviation Safety Officer courses, and DSG member of the MiANG. I'm not going to hire you as a DSG if you come in saying that you want an AGR job. "Well, get in line behind the half dozen guys who are already in the squadron who want one." Two is that we really don't hire people we don't know. There is a rush process. We're hiring you for the rest of your (long) career, and we want to make absolutely sure that you'll fit in with us. Three is that I think you have a bit of a misconception of what the AGR program is.

When you start in an AGR job you're probationary for the first 3ish years. Once you're selected for career status (which is largely academic, if you don't screw up you'll be selected for career status), you're in the AGR program until you retire. However, after 20 years, every other year you go to a continuation board, after 24 years it's annual.

You also have "fenced" and "non-fenced" AGRs. A fenced AGR is tied to a specific rank and billet. A non-fenced AGR you take with you to whatever billet you're assigned within the organization that hired you into the AGR program (generally wing level, but can go to state, and wings can trade AGR slots like baseball cards).

The other think about the AGR program is that each field grade officer has to have a control grade for their rank in order to promote to that rank. So just because you might find yourself in an O-5 AGR job, the state is only allowed to have so many O-5 AGRs, so your wing has to fight to get a control grade when they're available for you.

The three year tours you're thinking of may be ADOS or STAT tours- they're AD orders, but they're purely billet based. Many of them are 1-2 year orders that come with an option third year. They're similar to fenced AGR orders, but they have a term limit. A fenced career status AGR can stay in that billet, at that rank, until they retire. Fenced AGRs are a much bigger thing on the enlisted side, but they exist on the officer side as well.
 
FormerRecruitingGuru said:
If your overall goal is AGR, why not just do that directly?
Click to expand...


Thank you all so much for the replies.

You cannot just go AGR directly, as far as I have been led to believe. You have to already be a selected reserves DSG/TR drilling weekend warrior pilot, OR maybe you can slide right into AGR if you are already an Active-Regular-Air-Force-pilot, who is themself about to finish a ~12 year active duty regular-Air-Force contract... although even that is probably competitive for regular Air Force pilots. That's my understanding. The original crux of my question was 'whether prior active naval aviators can slide into AGR, similarly to how active air force pilots can potentially do so.' It sounds like the answer is 'No', which is unsurprising. Perhaps I could've done a much better job phrasing, apologies.

I don’t want to give the impression that the Department of the Navy is a fallback or not my first choice - it isn’t. I could say never-ending good things about every branch of service in the Defense/War Department.

Regardless of my personal feelings, if we wanted to analyze my eligibility as a candidate for the various branches, I am concerned that my history may present more paperwork than average, and I wonder if that could make me less competitive from a hiring standpoint, especially when considering attempting to go directly into the Air Force pipeline, and furthermore, I am just genuinely convinced that the Air Force is more academically competitive, not to mention the DSG/TR hiring genuinely demands a civilian or not aviation-prior service generally already has an FAA rating allegedly...

I am trying to begin the FAA medical process now, both because I’m genuinely interested in aviation, and because I understand having FAA rating(s) can help with selection in any branch. At the same time, I’m trying to be realistic about the accession side. Based on what I’ve seen so far, it seems like working through a Marine Corps OSO or Navy equivalent may be a more realistic path, though I could easily be wrong.

I did have a dramatic/complicated MEPS experience about a year ago, that turned into more of a process than expected, but I am working to get everything resolved so I can try again.

To be totally transparent, I am an enlisted Marine Corps reservist. I would need to make a ~17 year additional minimum cumulative active duty career.



Swanee said:
I an AD USMC to Michigan ANG transition who is a career status AGR in the Mi ANG. I'm also the rated pilot hiring manager for my squadron.
Three things, one is that there is not a squadron out there who is going to hire you directly into an AGR job. They'll hire you as a part-time DSG, and then see how you fit in. AGR jobs are generally boarded, and the requirements are generally written for specific people in mind. It is not uncommon for an AGR spot to be released and to only have a couple of people eligible to apply. For instance, when I applied for my AGR I had been in the unit for a couple years, and the job was written for an O-4 11f (fighter) qualified MQ-9 pilot, with evaluator experience, was a graduate of the USAF or USN Aviation Safety Officer courses, and DSG member of the MiANG. I'm not going to hire you as a DSG if you come in saying that you want an AGR job. "Well, get in line behind the half dozen guys who are already in the squadron who want one." Two is that we really don't hire people we don't know. There is a rush process. We're hiring you for the rest of your (long) career, and we want to make absolutely sure that you'll fit in with us. Three is that I think you have a bit of a misconception of what the AGR program is.

When you start in an AGR job you're probationary for the first 3ish years. Once you're selected for career status (which is largely academic, if you don't screw up you'll be selected for career status), you're in the AGR program until you retire. However, after 20 years, every other year you go to a continuation board, after 24 years it's annual.

You also have "fenced" and "non-fenced" AGRs. A fenced AGR is tied to a specific rank and billet. A non-fenced AGR you take with you to whatever billet you're assigned within the organization that hired you into the AGR program (generally wing level, but can go to state, and wings can trade AGR slots like baseball cards).

The other think about the AGR program is that each field grade officer has to have a control grade for their rank in order to promote to that rank. So just because you might find yourself in an O-5 AGR job, the state is only allowed to have so many O-5 AGRs, so your wing has to fight to get a control grade when they're available for you.

The three year tours you're thinking of may be ADOS or STAT tours- they're AD orders, but they're purely billet based. Many of them are 1-2 year orders that come with an option third year. They're similar to fenced AGR orders, but they have a term limit. A fenced career status AGR can stay in that billet, at that rank, until they retire. Fenced AGRs are a much bigger thing on the enlisted side, but they exist on the officer side as well.
Click to expand...

I heard that sometimes a DSG/TR airman might get lucky and get an AGR slot, and then soon after finishing his obligation, he is forced back into DSG/TR and unable to find another AGR slot... If you are a prior active duty Regular-Air-Force or former active duty Marine-Corps/Navy pilot, and you get forced back to DSG/TR, that could seriously shoot you in the foot and keep you from finishing the threshold to get that active duty retirement... Maybe they have safeguards against that if you are close to twenty...

You used a term I have not heard before... "career status' AGR'. I think that settles that topic; That must be like the equivalent of tenure, where they can't force you back into DSG/TR? Cool! Thanks for explaining that. And congratulations, sir! It sounds like you have been a LOT of places and accomplished a LOT.

ChuckMK23 said:
Plenty plenty of gold wingers in Guard/Reserve and AGR GS positions.
Click to expand...
For the record, while I know very little to begin with, most of my puny AGR knowledge comes from the Army side of the house. Although I did bump into an AirNG SSgt who told me she lost her AGR status and is now a dual-status technician. Technicians are something I know very little about. Obviously, I'm from the DoN, we don't have technicians. Until I ran into that dual-status AirNG technician, I always assumed all technicians only wore their multicam utilities on drill weekends and ATs. So now there is an additional nuance I don't understand. Regardless, even still, isn't technician status in general objectively a worse deal than AGR? I always assumed the DoD/DoW only privatizes things like gate guard policing, chow/mess halls, and creates technician positions, only to save money on benefits and retirement long-term. Again, I'm not out here for the money, but I thought technician status wasn't as ideal for retirement from the hearsay/impression I got. Until speaking to you now, I didn't even know technicians could be commissioned officers.

Again, I really appreciate the generous men and women who were willing to read my initial posting and lend your expertise, thank you again!
 
I can’t speak to the AF side, but ARNG technicians are becoming rare. As many retire, their slots aren’t being filled.
 
Griz882 said:
I heard that sometimes a DSG/TR airman might get lucky and get an AGR slot, and then soon after finishing his obligation, he is forced back into DSG/TR and unable to find another AGR slot... If you are a prior active duty Regular-Air-Force or former active duty Marine-Corps/Navy pilot, and you get forced back to DSG/TR, that could seriously shoot you in the foot and keep you from finishing the threshold to get that active duty retirement... Maybe they have safeguards against that if you are close to twenty...

You used a term I have not heard before... "career status' AGR'. I think that settles that topic; That must be like the equivalent of tenure, where they can't force you back into DSG/TR? Cool! Thanks for explaining that. And congratulations, sir! It sounds like you have been a LOT of places and accomplished a LOT.
Click to expand...


You're thinking of either how an ADOS or STAT tour works for officers, or what happens if an officer gets in serious trouble while on probationary status, or how enlisted AGRs work. Enlisted AGRs are not promotable- they can find themselves in a situation where they have to revert to DSG status if they want to promote.


BTW- a probationary AGR just means that you can resign at anytime, whereas career status you are dedicated until you retire. It takes TAG approval to resign a career status AGR.
 
Griz882 said:
I can’t speak to the AF side, but ARNG technicians are becoming rare. As many retire, their slots aren’t being filled.
Click to expand...

They're becoming very rare in the ANG as well. Most of them are being converted to AGR when the folks in them retire.
 
propanelord said:
I understand having FAA rating(s) can help with selection in any branch.
Click to expand...
Not in the USN, it is almost all on the ASTB with GPA after that. USMC places high importance on the PFT and the ASTB. You can study and take the ASTB when ready, the scores are good for life, maybe that will help guide your decision?
 
By the way, Happy Easter to everyone!

exNavyOffRec said:
Not in the USN, it is almost all on the ASTB with GPA after that. USMC places high importance on the PFT and the ASTB. You can study and take the ASTB when ready, the scores are good for life, maybe that will help guide your decision?
Click to expand...
I am very concerned that my replies were already much too long. I trimmed a lot of information from what I originally intended to write. I decided to minimize personal details.

I got an 59/8/8/8/59 on the ASTBE. Allegedly, the Marine Corps only cares about the 8/8/8. I am under the impression the 59(s) are not super high, but inversely, I'm under the impression 8s are pretty decent. I didn't study for the exam.

I have never taken the AFOQT or TBAS. I wonder if the AFOQT and/or TBAS are way harder than the ASTBE? Also, allegedly, there is like some rule that you can't talk about the AFOQT, it's secret or something? You can't ask you friends what they did to study or what the questions are like? IDK, but someone told me recently it's treated like some sacred document you can't even talk about,

Obviously, in a decade or more, so many things will change, but has it been the case that naval aviators who try to transition to being Air Force or Army aviators need to take the AFOQT and/or TBAS or whatever the Army version is?.

My GPA allegedly is going to be like 3.8 or 3.9 printed on my diploma, after I graduate next month? Not sure. It's a really crappy school, not prestigious, not a STEM degree.

I knew of a Marine Corps OSO who was intel or ground intel or whatever, but after he finished his tour of duty, he became an SNA, and went to Pensacola, or Milton, FL, or whatever it's called. He got his PPL on his own dime while working at the OSS, I believe. Or maybe he already had his PPL, but was just getting further hours and/or ratings and/or endorsements while at the OSS, not sure. But I was under the impression it slightly helped your application, the same way community service hours or a STEM college major might slightly sweeten the pot. Allegedly, the only people who NEED FAA rating(s) to really get their foot in the door are Air Force Reserve / Air National Guard applicants who weren't already prior military pilots. Only going off what I heard/read, I am certain some things I believe must be misconceptions.

Griz882 said:
I can’t speak to the AF side, but ARNG technicians are becoming rare. As many retire, their slots aren’t being filled.
Click to expand...
Are officer technicians becoming rare, or are both enlisted and officer technicians becoming rare?

Again, I didn't even know that technicians being officers existed until I spoke to ya'll, but I barely know/knew anything about NG/Army/AF. I was under the impression that technicians weren't rare, because until recently, I actually had a technician living across the street. He was an MP or SF or whatever the Dept of the Air Force calls them, so he guarded the gate at an AIRNG base as his full-time job. I'm actually not positive if he wore multicam utilities every day, or just only on drill weekend, or perhaps since he is a policemen, they never wear multicams because they wear something else. Weird to focus on the uniform, but that's the only way I know to differentiate between when they are in military status and when they are in civilian status, if they're not dual status...


Again, thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen!
 
propanelord said:
By the way, Happy Easter to everyone!


I am very concerned that my replies were already much too long. I trimmed a lot of information from what I originally intended to write. I decided to minimize personal details.

I got an 59/8/8/8/59 on the ASTBE. Allegedly, the Marine Corps only cares about the 8/8/8. I am under the impression the 59(s) are not super high, but inversely, I'm under the impression 8s are pretty decent. I didn't study for the exam.

I have never taken the AFOQT or TBAS. I wonder if the AFOQT and/or TBAS are way harder than the ASTBE? Also, allegedly, there is like some rule that you can't talk about the AFOQT, it's secret or something? You can't ask you friends what they did to study or what the questions are like? IDK, but someone told me recently it's treated like some sacred document you can't even talk about,

Obviously, in a decade or more, so many things will change, but has it been the case that naval aviators who try to transition to being Air Force or Army aviators need to take the AFOQT and/or TBAS or whatever the Army version is?.

My GPA allegedly is going to be like 3.8 or 3.9 printed on my diploma, after I graduate next month? Not sure. It's a really crappy school, not prestigious, not a STEM degree.
Click to expand...

Great ASTB and that is an excellent GPA. I hope this helps put you a bit at ease but I had a person with an online University of Phoenix degree that was 3.6 and was selected over a person who had a degree from Harvard with a GPA of 3.3 ish?

In most cases people who had taken the AFOQT and then came to me to take the ASTB did not do as well on the ASTB compared to the AFOQT, that wasn't a large number but just my experience.
 
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