INTRUDER - Black Monday

[BusyBee604]

I happened to be airborne on a RP-4 recce on 21 Aug. '67 (Black Monday), when the VA-196 "Main Battery" launched a division of A-6As to strike a Hanoi area target. During the bombing run, the leader, CO Leo Profilet was shot down & both he & his B/N captured. The CO's wingman headed for "feet wet". The remaining section, retiring toward the coast, encountered a huge thunderstorm. and elected to attempt to skirt it to the north. Unfortunately, despite warning calls from BIG LOOK & RED CROWN, they flew close to, or crossed the Chinese border and were shot down by 'salivating' Chinese MIGs. One lone Intruder returned to CONNIE, devastating the Airwing, Ship, & Squadron. The radio traffic was gut-wrenching as no SAR was possible.

The toll: 3 KIA, 2 POW - NVN, 1 POW - China, and 1/3 of the Sqdns A/C! Black day indeed...

CDR Profilet & his B/N were returned in March '73, and B/N LCDR Bob Flynn by China shortly thereafter.
*Freedom is not free...
BzB

 

[Lovebug201]

I happened to be airborne on a RP-4 recce on 21 Aug. '67 (Black Monday), when the VA-196 "Main Battery" launched a division of A-6As to strike a Hanoi area target. During the bombing run, the leader, CO Leo Profilet was shot down & both he & his B/N captured. The CO's wingman headed for "feet wet". The remaining section, retiring toward the coast, encountered a huge thunderstorm. and elected to attempt to skirt it to the north. Unfortunately, despite warning calls from BIG LOOK & RED CROWN, they flew close to, or crossed the Chinese border and were shot down by 'salivating' Chinese MIGs. One lone Intruder returned to CONNIE, devastating the Airwing, Ship, & Squadron. The radio traffic was gut-wrenching as no SAR was possible.

The toll: 3 KIA, 2 POW - NVN, 1 POW - China, and 1/3 of the Sqdns A/C! Black day indeed...

CDR Profilet & his B/N were returned in March '73, and B/N LCDR Bob Flynn by China shortly thereafter.
*Freedom is not free...
BzB
View attachment 10507

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Talk about a "bad day at black rock"

Good post BzB

 

[Gatordev]

I've never heard of Chinese POWs before. What did they do with them? Did they stay in mainland China? Were conditions comparable to the NVN camps?

I've been missing little tidbits of Naval Aviation like this on this site.

 

[Catmando]

BZB - Thanks for that. I did not know of that mission. Bad day!

FWIW, I accidentally came close to flying into Red China on a couple of missions. Good thing I didn't!

Gatordev - We had some Chinese POWs, both from Korea and Vietnam. What happened to them is a good question with probably a painful answer.

 

[Flash]

I've never heard of Chinese POWs before. What did they do with them? Did they stay in mainland China? Were conditions comparable to the NVN camps?

I've been missing little tidbits of Naval Aviation like this on this site.

There were only a handful of Americans held by China during the Vietnam War, here is a list from the POW Network including two CIA officers who were captured in 1952 during the Korean War and were held until 1971 and 1973.

The A-6 NFO held in China gave a talk at the Whidbey O Club a few years ago (I think at an ANA meeting) and described his captivity. IIRC he said that his treatment wasn't as physically abusive as POWs endured in Vietnam (though apparently he did ensure some periods of torture) but that he was held in solitary for a very long period of time and didn't have contact with any of the other prisoners for most, if not all the time he was there.

 

[BusyBee604]

I've never heard of Chinese POWs before. What did they do with them? Did they stay in mainland China? Were conditions comparable to the NVN camps?

Good questions. All I can ascertain is that 5 China-held U.S. POWs were released at the time of the March '73 NVN POW release, LCDR Flynn, a MAJ Phil Smith USAF F-104 pilot & 3 unidentified civilians.

I met Bob Flynn at the A-4 Retirement ceremonies at the MONA, Pensacola about 13 years ago. Didn't grill him, but in small bits and pieces, I got a sense that they were housed, fed and treated quite a bit better than the NVN POWs. He said nothing about 'torture'.

Bob Flynn was a character...known throughout the Airwing as the Dude who carried a bugle in the cockpit, and blew various bugle calls over the radio during each catapult launch. He was 'hell on wheels' on the beach! I would guess the Chinese sighed in relief when he finally departed!
BzB

 

[Mumbles]

I've never heard of Chinese POWs before. What did they do with them? Did they stay in mainland China? Were conditions comparable to the NVN camps?

I've been missing little tidbits of Naval Aviation like this on this site.

and how!!

 

[Gatordev]

Interesting. Thanks for the info, all.

 

[OUSOONER]

I know there are probably some old salts who lurk this site who probably have a lot to add. I wish they would chime in.

Maybe a Sea Stories subcategory forum...? They would be easy to access. I will admit there are times I go back to some old threads by A4's , Catmando, BZB et al. Would be easier to find if they were all just in one area...and maybe would trigger further discussion, some are years old and buried in the depths of AW.

 

[BusyBee604]

I know there are probably some old salts who lurk this site who probably have a lot to add. I wish they would chime in.

Maybe a Sea Stories subcategory forum...? They would be easy to access. I will admit there are times I go back to some old threads by A4's , Catmando, BZB et al. Would be easier to find if they were all just in one area...and maybe would trigger further discussion, some are years old and buried in the depths of AW.

Prior to the last AW upgrade, we had an easy to to find/access 'BLOGS' area. That's where I had posted my pre-written TINS/Sea Stories. They seem to have disapppeared. I know that many of you have read these stories, but the newer members have not had the opportunity because they have rolled back into the depths, as OUSOONER noted.

A Sea Stories forum as noted above, could be a way to make these stories readily accessible to all???
BzB

 

[Gatordev]

Unfortunately only Machine and Webmaster have the juice to create a new sub-forum so maybe one of them can set that up. Probably not a bad idea, though.

 

[707guy]

A Sea Stories forum as noted above, could be a way to make these stories readily accessible to all???
BzB

BZ on that idea - I would appreciate that!

 

[rondebmar]

[quote="Gatordev, post: 680440"]I've never heard of Chinese POWs before. What did they do with them? Did they stay in mainland China? Were conditions comparable to the NVN camps?[/quote]

Gatordev - We had some Chinese POWs, both from Korea and Vietnam. What happened to them is a good question with probably a painful answer.

There were only a handful of Americans held by China during the Vietnam War, here is a list from the POW Network including two CIA officers who were captured in 1952 during the Korean War and were held until 1971 and 1973.

Good questions. All I can ascertain is that 5 China-held U.S. POWs were released at the time of the March '73 NVN POW release, LCDR Flynn, a MAJ Phil Smith USAF F-104 pilot & 3 unidentified civilians.BzB

Sorry Hugh...threadjack!!

I followed the saga of Fecteau & Downey for many years...I married into a section of the Fecteau family (Salem MA Frenchmen)...my MIL knew Dick well. Then, years later, had a neighbor and close friend who was heavily into the Downey family (from CT). Then, many years later, flew w/ a UAL Captain who was a room-mate of Dick Fecteau...had a long discussion re the case over a martini...or two...or...!!

Anyway, for more info, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Downey#CIA_Medal
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol50no4/two-cia-prisoners-in-china-1952201373.html

 

[helolumpy]

Unfortunately only Machine and Webmaster have the juice to create a new sub-forum so maybe one of them can set that up. Probably not a bad idea, though.

Recommend we make it a Naval History section vice Sea Stories. We get enough Sea Stories in other posts, plus we would want to ensure there is some veracity to these posts vice "So, there I was..."

We could add write ups about famous naval battles/engagements or other interesting historical stories.

And then BZB can tell us about landing on the Lexington... And I mean CV-2, not CV-16!

 

[Gatordev]

Sounds good to me. I saw Webmaster on here the other day, so I know he can occasionally tear himself away from his Hinge duties, so maybe he can make it happen.

On deployment, flying operationally and only having a 256 Kbit connection... War is hell.