IFS Cut in Half

[usmarinemike]

I think it's a shame, really. Especially because that bigger, badder airplane is starting to take up almost half of alpha line. Just little things like being more comfy on the radios is going to be key. I happen to think most things happen pretty slow in a T34, but I'm not so sure a zero hour guy is going to have a damn clue what's happening for about his first 10 hours in something faster. Is the Air Force's IFT program working as prescribed?

And right now it's the first 4 FAMs that don't count toward pipeline selection. But there's a new MPTS out so who knows what that one says. Likewise the T6 will have a new MPTS.

 

[VulcanRider]

Learning how to call "Right base for 14" didn't do a damn thing for me in Primary. Especially since we only used those calls at A-County. I can't speak for the Whiting Primary OLF Ops.

 

[KCOTT]

Learning how to call "Right base for 14" didn't do a damn thing for me in Primary. Especially since we only used those calls at A-County. I can't speak for the Whiting Primary OLF Ops.

I think it's more so being confident over the radio. Making radio calls with assertion, rather than stumbling through it and pausing between every phrase trying to think of what to say next. At least for me at Mobile, I was constantly talking to the tower and approach, not just making CTAF traffic calls.

 

[kmac]

Learning how to call "Right base for 14" didn't do a damn thing for me in Primary. Especially since we only used those calls at A-County. I can't speak for the Whiting Primary OLF Ops.

Along this same line, if any of you think IFS is to better your performance... you are grossly mistaken. You are also mistaken to think that the prior 25 hours of flight time means a thing in Primary. The radio calls are different, the tempo is different, and the amount of required knowledge is much greater. All of this translates on how well you prepare for the flights and what you can gather of your performance in the cockpit.

Also, the new MPTS still has the first four contact flights not counting toward NSS. The biggest change has to do with the C4600 block rolling into the C4500 block, and therefore NCONs being the new C4600 block (vice C4700). There are some minor changes in unsats/IPC/FPC procedures, but nothing big.

 

[C420sailor]

Learning how to call "Right base for 14" didn't do a damn thing for me in Primary. Especially since we only used those calls at A-County. I can't speak for the Whiting Primary OLF Ops.

I did IFS in Eglin and I think it helped me immensely. Even though they were pretty simple, we had course rules in and out of VPS, and we had to communicate with ATC extensively on every flight. Looking back on it, I thought that the training was solid and definitely gave me an edge in early contacts.

 

[VulcanRider]

I also did IFS out of Mobile...and yep didn't do a damn thing for me. When did you ever tell them that you were initial for (pick your favorite), or how about trying to find the smallest gap in radio comms to tell them that you were numbers for the break? How about the formation comms? The radio comms are night and day between civilian and military. Talking to Billy Bob at downtown is like having a conversation. No assertion/speed necessary. Talking in Primary and on is about quick and concise calls with little room for interpretation. Just listen to the average guy with his experimental phart blower out there. They probably know just as much as we did coming out of IFS and did it do anything for them? NOPE. Experience and knowing what to expect from the controller is where comfort comes from. Besides how long are people waiting between IFS and Primary. Those little knowledges that we all picked up on in IFS were long gone by that point, especially at the pace that military training comms go at.

IFS has it's purpose. Claiming that gaining comfort on the radio should not be the number one thing we took out of it. It is however an excellent jumping off point for flight school. It definitely is a wake-up call for some people, and is fun at the same time. It absolutely confirmed that I love flying, and that I am not going to quit randomly for some random fear/discomfort. Take it for what it's worth, a screening program.

 

[ryan1234]

The radio comms are night and day between civilian and military. Talking to Billy Bob at downtown is like having a conversation. No assertion/speed necessary.

Try talking to Miami Approach below 3500 inside 20nm MIA on a weekday morning.... or what til you talk to a foreign controller with a thick accent in a foreign country trying to pick up an ammended en-route IFR clearance while you're in IMC near a busy arrival coridor. Civilian flying has it's fair share of concise/assertion/speed radio calls needed... it's just not on the CTAF at the local patch.

 

[Ducky]

Along this same line, if any of you think IFS is to better your performance... you are grossly mistaken. You are also mistaken to think that the prior 25 hours of flight time means a thing in Primary. The radio calls are different, the tempo is different, and the amount of required knowledge is much greater. All of this translates on how well you prepare for the flights and what you can gather of your performance in the cockpit.

Also, the new MPTS still has the first four contact flights not counting toward NSS. The biggest change has to do with the C4600 block rolling into the C4500 block, and therefore NCONs being the new C4600 block (vice C4700). There are some minor changes in unsats/IPC/FPC procedures, but nothing big.

Of course thats not the Navy's puprose, and IFS doesn't mean shit to the instructors; however, in IFS clearing turns, sight pictures, and other simple manuevers were thoughrouly beat into my. Yes it helped on those graded fams when the instructors were impressed that I was clearing every turn,or the initial sight picture on final gave the instructors a good starting point to teach from and tweak. Of course every stud doesnt feel this way mainly due to lack of instructor stan in IFS; and no stud should roll in thinking he is shit hot for 25 hrs. I say use whatever experience you can to get ahead as long as you realize you will fly the Navy's way.

I do agree with you that none of the points above are justification to funding IFS. I just think its foolish to totally write off 25 hours of training as useless. Are the first 25 hrs of T-34 time considered useless? Experience no matter how small when used properly is valuable. IFS has been going on for quite some time, perhaps some of the current opinions would change if the FAM 1 instructors started getting studs with no IFS experience then it would be more clear whether or not it actually helps

 

[MIDNJAC]

To be honest, I think the biggest carry over from my prior civilian time was comms. Pretty sure that is the only way that my IP's in advanced guessed on occasion that I had prior time

 

[VulcanRider]

Try talking to Miami Approach below 3500 inside 20nm MIA on a weekday morning.... or what til you talk to a foreign controller with a thick accent in a foreign country trying to pick up an ammended en-route IFR clearance while you're in IMC near a busy arrival coridor. Civilian flying has it's fair share of concise/assertion/speed radio calls needed... it's just not on the CTAF at the local patch.

Ok maybe I wasn't specific enough. I know how busy civilian comms can get. BUT, IFS does nothing to prepare you for that, and it shouldn't. The first time I went into a Bravo A/S was on my Primary Cross Country, and IFS didn't do anything to get me there. My experiences in RI's in Primary sure did, but talking to a tower under VFR and departure control for flight following sure didn't. The point is, good study habits created early in flight school, to include IFS, are what truly helps to adapt to comms. Seeing and hearing something helps to understand it, but I don't think IFS gave me a leg up. I studied my ass of on course rules, and it didn't mean squat until I saw it. I studied my ass of on the comms, and it still took me a couple of those first fams to get them flawless. Why? because IFS was a different type of flying/communication.

25 hours of IFS experience doesn't even measure up to someone who came in with alot of experience already.

Like I said before, IFS HAS A PURPOSE, it is not to be proficient at Radio Comms. So the defense against cutting flights should not be because it teaches you to speak clearly. If that were the only thing we all got out of IFS, then it should be cut all together. Too many people before us went through Primary with 0 prior time and they found someway to be confident on the radios.

 

[torpedo0126]

I think it's a shame, really. Especially because that bigger, badder airplane is starting to take up almost half of alpha line. Just little things like being more comfy on the radios is going to be key. I happen to think most things happen pretty slow in a T34, but I'm not so sure a zero hour guy is going to have a damn clue what's happening for about his first 10 hours in something faster. Is the Air Force's IFT program working as prescribed?

The Air Force has most of its attrition during IFT. It is WAYYYYYYYY more intense than our IFS. The students all go to Pueblo, regardless of having a PPL or not. They all live in a 'compound' and are expected to eat, sleep, study and workout. It is basically set-up the same way as JSUPT at Vance, with formal briefs, shotgun questions and stand up EP's. Most of the instructors are retired military, they wear their uniforms and have to log PT time. Things are memorized to a 'T', comms are scripted, they fly overhead patterns and basically just replicate UPT.

I have not talked to a single Air Force stud who enjoyed it, but it serves its purpose and gets a lot of people to drop or attrite. Airsickness is not given much consideration either, at least compared to what they do to adapt you when you're in T-6s.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Wow, stand up ep's in a cessna? that is a new low

 

[OUSOONER]

Well at least the EP couldn't be that long. There's hardly anything in the aircraft for the pilot to manipulate. That's like me having an EP book for my car. I'm going to start carrying my Toyota user guide in my lower left pocket on my bag, "just in case".

 

[C420sailor]

...they fly overhead patterns...

That must be about as exciting as watching paint dry.

 

[The Phiz]

Wow, stand up ep's in a cessna? that is a new low

If I recall, the AF flies DA-20's for IFT.. It's deffinately not cessnas.


And personally for me, I feel that IFS hurt my radio proceedures for my first few primary flights. IFS radio calls were extremely informal and lax, which I learned real quick doesn't fly in primary.

In General IFS just reassured me that I love flying. As it was said before, the T-34 is a completely different beast, and I don't feel IFS helped much. IFS didn't cover Trim, the 'maneuvers' were a joke, and no where near as precise, and there wasn't much a bar to be held to. I agree that it helped more with API (Nav & FRR).

I did enjoy the 2nd half of IFS, and I feel that Soloing around the field, with your instructor watching you with a radio (which is what I am assuming their only solo will be) didn't do much at all. Yeah, it was cool, but it wasn't until I did my solo to the beach, where I felt like it was a true 'solo'.

Bottom line- Cutting IFS in half will make the bean counters happier, but I am deffinately glad to have gotten the 25 hrs... not for any skill or advantage in primary... but because it was plain fun.