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Harriers!

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ScottZ28

Registered User
hey guys.... any of you know how much longer the Harrier is expected to be in service before the JSF comes on line? Would a young guy like me (20 years old, college sophomore) get a shot at flying one someday? Also, is the Harrier generally a highly sought-after assignment out of flight school? Thanks a lot!

Scott [8D]
 

Jack

Registered User
The AV-8B Lawn Dart should continue to see service for quite a while. I think it is safe to say that you would still be in the running for it in 4 years. Marines have a funny way of selecting who is going to fly what frames. You've got to be an above average performer (generally speaking) throughout jet school to get Harriers. They call it the Harrier cut, I think it hovers somewhere around a 50 NSS in Advanced. I'm not sure how much of it has to do with the actual NSS vice where you pan out relative to the other dudes completing with you. It gets strange when a guy really wants Hornets. He finishes, lets say, 2nd out of 4 marines that week. Say there are 2 hornets and 2 harriers to be had. Lets further say the number one guy WANTS harriers - so now our guy is next in line with good grades and really wants Hornets while the two guys behind him have lower grades. There is a strong likelyhood that our guy would get the other harrier with the last two guys getting hornets - becasue he had high enough grades while the last two didn't make the so called 'harrier cut'. Clear as mud? The moral of the story is you wanna be good, but if you can't be number one it may pay to be number 4 or 5 - if you really wanted hornets.
 

Tessone

Registered User
Do you think Harrier drivers will be more likely to transition to the JSF when it hits the fleet, or do you think they'll pull equally from all jet communities?

--
Chris Tessone
http://www.polyglut.net/
 

Adrenaline Rush

Registered User
that would be a shame to take them out of the jet community after the US government spent a million dollars on training them, i really doubt they would just let that happen, at least i hope not
 

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
Originally posted by Jack
Marines have a funny way of selecting who is going to fly what frames. You've got to be an above average performer (generally speaking) throughout jet school to get Harriers. They call it the Harrier cut, I think it hovers somewhere around a 50 NSS in Advanced. I'm not sure how much of it has to do with the actual NSS vice where you pan out relative to the other dudes completing with you. It gets strange when a guy really wants Hornets. He finishes, lets say, 2nd out of 4 marines that week. Say there are 2 hornets and 2 harriers to be had. Lets further say the number one guy WANTS harriers - so now our guy is next in line with good grades and really wants Hornets while the two guys behind him have lower grades. There is a strong likelyhood that our guy would get the other harrier with the last two guys getting hornets - becasue he had high enough grades while the last two didn't make the so called 'harrier cut'. Clear as mud? The moral of the story is you wanna be good, but if you can't be number one it may pay to be number 4 or 5 - if you really wanted hornets.

Jack, those guys are called bottom feeders. the Harrier cut-off is around a 45 NSS ... to get the boot out of Advanced for a Marine is around a 40 NSS, so a person would be treading on thin ice to try that route to the Hornet. another thing is if a person can't fly a T-45 and get an average NSS (around 53), then that person damn sure won't make it it through Hornet training.

semper fidelis
 

Tessone

Registered User
Navy Standard Score

It's a composite of how well you've done on academics and flying during Primary. I think you get an NSS for Advanced, too, which determines your airframe pick, right?


--
Chris Tessone
http://www.polyglut.net/
 

davidsin

Registered User
what determines a high score at NSS? Is it mostly acedemic or physical? Or a combination of both? Can someone please elaborate on how one would be qualified for advance, etc? Thanks

Semper Fi Do or Die Gung Ho GUng Ho!!
 

Jack

Registered User
Originally posted by jarhead

Jack, those guys are called bottom feeders. the Harrier cut-off is around a 45 NSS ... to get the boot out of Advanced for a Marine is around a 40 NSS, so a person would be treading on thin ice to try that route to the Hornet. another thing is if a person can't fly a T-45 and get an average NSS (around 53), then that person damn sure won't make it it through Hornet training.

semper fidelis


Jarhead, I wasn't recommending that anyone try the so called bottom feeder approach to getting Hornets.

An aside. When it comes to the whole selection process the motto "strive for mediocrity" seems to apply rather well. Let's face it, one sure way for a Meridian/K-rock guy to garuntee himself Hornets was to DQ at the boat. Who want's Prowlers? No one! Well, don't do too well at the boat. I continue to keep in touch with many of my friends in Meridian and I am shocked and equally disgusted every time I hear the spread of a new winging class. From what I saw and continue to see at the FRS, in order to get what you want out of the selection processes 'strive for mediocrity' and let the overachievers sweat it out.
 

ProwlerPilot

Registered User
pilot
The NSS is determined by your academics in ground school, and then heavily weighted by how you perform in the plane. It is about a 25% ground school to 75% flying division. (give or take a few percentages) Unless you REALLY suck in ground school though, people are made in the plane. An NSS of 80 is high as crap. 55-60 is good. below 50, not so great. 20, BAD! Your NSS in primary only gets you a community selection (jets, props, helos) and your NSS in intermediate and advanced determine your platform. (F-18, F-14, S-3, or the MIGHTY MIGHTY WAR PIG!!!!! Prowlers!)

Hope that helps and PICK PROWLERS!!!!!
 

Frumby

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
As survivor of the very first MATSG selection board, I can honestly tell you that the board SUCKS but it is a necessary evil. As a person who has "chaired" many Marine boards, let me first say that it is a privlege to look at a student and place him in a platform that will benefit the Corps. Unlike the Navy, who sends recommendations to the detailer and the detailer has the final say, not the IP's that know the SNA. I've seen MANY CO's recommendations over turned by the detailer. The USMC "Monitors" (Like the Navy detailers) send the board members the slots needed to be filled. We have the opportunity to interview and attempt to find a best fit for each pilot. The Harrier cutoff is a pain and it does seem that we strive for mediocrity but the intention is to strive for life preservation. What was happening was that all the top pilots were selecting hornets. At the time, the Marine Corps only had 1 squadron of Prowlers so only 1 slot came up annually(unlike when I selected and 5 of us got Prowlers. There is generally 2 slots for EA6's per month on average). All the lower ranked pilots got Scarriers. What was happening is that we were crashing Scarriers at a rate of 25 per 100,000 flight hours. For those who don't realize the sigifigance with that figure, let me explain. The individual rates of the Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps is normally les then 2 per 100,000 flight hour. That figure is for ALL the aircraft in each service. My figure on the Harrier is for that aircraft ALONE. The Harrier accident rate has come down significantly since the initiation of the "Harrier Cut" but it is still high for a single aircraft. In fact, the Marine Corps does not include the Harrier in the service's annual mishap rate. That's the reason behind the cut. The board now determines the cut and those people below are generally going to get Hornets. Those above the cut, your interview is everything. If you have a bad attitude (you would be suprised at the attitudes that show up at a board determining your life for the next 5-15 years)you are not going to get what you want. Don't try to influence the board either UNLESS you have a critically ill child who needs special care, you are probably going to Miramar which has the best hospitals. That is the only case that I have seen that ever influenced a boards decision. By the way, we never looked at the NSS nor computed it. All grades were computed by Student Control and then the MATSG SGT was told to compile the data and tell us who was above the line and who wasn't.
As a last note, how you do in flight school is not always a good indication of how you will perform in the fleet. The stress of flight school can impede performance at times but it is somewhat difficult to tell the top performers from the marginal ones in the fleet. EVERYONE learns at a different pace. No One is "mediocre" when he achieves his Wings of Gold regardless of platform. It is one of the most difficult schools in the military.
Semper SoapBox, Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC
 

Tessone

Registered User
Thanks for that info, sir. It's also very motivating to hear about things from someone who has really been there.

Are the high incident numbers for the Harrier because of the airframe, or inept pilots? If I end up in a NA, that's the platform I'd love most to fly, I think--even had a poster of them on my wall as a kid.

--
Chris Tessone
http://www.polyglut.net/
 

Frumby

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Sorry Hard charger,
According to the MATSG-22 XO, the pendelum is swinging back to the interview boards. We'll see if it is reestablished or not. Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC
 

splendid_splinter

HMLA flyer
Major Frumby, any chance you are a meat eater? While i was in the pool at Matsg-22 a couple weeks ago, a major that is a harrier driver asked a group of us if we were meat-eaters that wanted to fly jets or herbivores that wanted helos. Unfortunately, I can't recall his name, so I was wondering if it was you, sir...
 
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