Gulf of Sidra 1989 Audio

[DanMa1156]

Found this link while reading about the 1989 Gulf of Sidra Incident... really interesting listening to the F-14 Crews and the E-2 crew, especially noting their tone of voice as it gets more nervous and tense...

It starts off with the 2 Tomcat Crews trying 5 maneuvers to avoid a merge and after the 5th one the master arm is put on and one of the crews launches the Sparrow as he declares "Fox 1" and then things really get heated up.

For those who would know, is this the incident, as you can hear the pilot of one of the crews say "I don't Fvckin have tone" (but then immediately you hear him locking on) where he had a lock, but had turned his volume down and didn't realize it and then he realized that was the volume was down after a little bit? I know I read that as part of the case for one of the Gulf of Sidra incidents, but I don't know if it was the 1981 or the 1989 one...


As a final note: it took awhile to load the mp3 file, so I didn't even try the wav, I don't know if that's a better quality, but the mp3 you can hear the pretty clear...

 

[TheBubba]

Nice find Dan...

Testament to it all how even as things started to get squirrelly, they kept cool heads.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DanMav1156 again.

AW smileys in effect

 

[Fly Navy]

That gave me tinglies! That was awesome. Good post.

 

[HeyJoe]

For those who would know, is this the incident, as you can hear the pilot of one of the crews say "I don't Fvckin have tone" (but then immediately you hear him locking on) where he had a lock, but had turned his volume down and didn't realize it and then he realized that was the volume was down after a little bit?

The tape recording system doesn't care about pilot volume. Pilot was still had SP selected and therefore had no tone until RIO reminded him (RIO gets indication on his display as to what pilot has selected). As soon as pilot selected SW, he got the immediate tone (as does tape recorder) and he fired a Sidewinder.

If you listen carefully, the lead RIO is doing most of the talking, but his pilot (who was senior at the time) makes a call to Alpha Bravo after E-2 makes call that they are "Warning Yellow and weapons hold" which is unanswered before the RIO fires the first Sparrow (pilot sounds a bit surprised).

 

[Fly Navy]

before the RIO fires the first Sparrow (pilot sounds a bit surprised).

I don't know much about the weapons systems... how does a RIO fire a missile? I thought weapons release was only pilot?

 

[HeyJoe]

I don't know much about the weapons systems... how does a RIO fire a missile? I thought weapons release was only pilot?

RIO can/could fire Sparrow and Phoenix. Pilot only had master arm control though and had ability to fire gun, Sidewinder, Sparrow and Phoenix. Each aircrew worked out their own "contract" for combat or missile shoots. Usually, RIO fired in BVR and Pilot had WVR.

 

[Fly Navy]

RIO can/could fire Sparrow and Phoenix. Pilot only had master arm control though and had ability to fire gun, Sidewinder, Sparrow and Phoenix. Each aircrew worked out their own "contract" for combat or missile shoots. Usually, RIO fired in BVR and Pilot had WVR.

I did not know that, thanks

 

[Fly Navy]

"Warning Yellow, Weapons Hold". What exactly does this mean? Can you shoot back if fired upon? Can you shoot first if you know it's going to be an engagement? Seems like someone (AB) screwed up the radio signal?

 

[eddie]

neat stuff, thanks

 

[Gatordev]

"Hostile action is possible" and... I always get the "Hold" and "Free" mixed up. There's three levels, "Tight" (target must be declared hostile...something you can't do on your own), "Hold" and "Free." It will be in your TACAID should you carry such a thing.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Let's test my memory.....

Hold - weapons may only be fired in self-defense or upon receipt of an order to fire from the approriate authority (AS, AX, AW, AB, etc.)

Tight - weapons may be fired at targets that are declared hostile.

Free - weapons may be fired at any target not identified as friendly.



Gatordev - I think you might have tight and hold mixed up. Plus sometimes you can declare a target hostile on your own if ROE are met. I did it in the Persian Gukf in 1988 while escorting reflagged Kuwaiti tankers (I didn't have any weapons to fire though...) and again over Bosnia in 1994-95 (sicked some F-16s on them).

 

[HeyJoe]

Let's test my memory.....

Hold - weapons may only be fired in self-defense or upon receipt of an order to fire from the approriate authority (AS, AX, AW, AB, etc.)

Tight - weapons may be fired at targets that are declared hostile.

Free - weapons may be fired at any target not identified as friendly.



Gatordev - I think you might have tight and hold mixed up. Plus sometimes you can declare a target hostile on your own if ROE are met. I did it in the Persian Gukf in 1988 while escorting reflagged Kuwaiti tankers (I didn't have any weapons to fire though...) and again over Bosnia in 1994-95 (sicked some F-16s on them).

True, that is why RIO was making calls that Floggers had jinked into them so many times (thus satisfying ROE).

 

[DanMa1156]

Thanks for the info... yeah I enjoyed listening to it too...

Question: If you listen, he fires 2 AIM-7s I believe, and misses both... was this a missile that wasn't really trusted or accurate? It wasn't fire and forget was it? Is it still used?

Edit: I don't mean to cross the boundries of OPSPEC here, mods, feel free to edit as necessary.
Edit #2: Actually, I guess the 2nd AIM-7 did hit...
Edit #3: Ok, I was right the first time, 2nd AIM-7 missed!

 

[Brett327]

Thanks for the info... yeah I enjoyed listening to it too...

Question: If you listen, he fires 2 AIM-7s I believe, and both miss... was this a missile that wasn't really trusted or accurate? It wasn't fire and forget was it? Is it still used?

Edit: I don't mean to cross the boundries of OPSPEC here, mods, feel free to edit as necessary.

Sparrow is a semi-active homing missile, which means it homes on the energy reflecting off the target which originates at the firing aircraft's illuminator radar beam. This means the firing aircraft has to keep the target locked up until impact and also limits the maneuvers the firing aircraft can undertake during missile TOF to the gimbal limits of their radar. It has essentially been replaced with AMRAAM which can be but is not necessarily fire and forget.

Brett

 

[Gatordev]

Tight - weapons may be fired at targets that are declared hostile.

Free - weapons may be fired at any target not identified as friendly.



Gatordev - I think you might have tight and hold mixed up. Plus sometimes you can declare a target hostile on your own if ROE are met. I did it in the Persian Gukf in 1988 while escorting reflagged Kuwaiti tankers (I didn't have any weapons to fire though...) and again over Bosnia in 1994-95 (sicked some F-16s on them).

I thought I was saying the same thing:

"Tight" (target must be declared hostile...something you can't do on your own),

Or maybe I'm missing what you're saying. As for the rest of them, thanks for the refresher. I do always forget which is the "as long as it's not friendly..." one. Oh, now that I reread your post for the 5th time, I see what you're saying. For us, it was Alpha-whatever that declared it for us, either through Mom or through someone who was controlling us (VP, E-2, etc). I think it's probably due to the fact that we're usually considered a weapon system of the ship, so in training, we often need to be baby-sat by Mom Actual. Some guys even want to give us "Batteries release" even though they're not the one who actually authorizes it, the HAC does. But I digress. We also don't have mission commander quals, but I doubt that makes much of a difference to the arugument.