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Going Active from Reserves

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
They are doing away with the 'running mate' system.

Good. I never liked it. I earned my promotions by competing with my peers. When I took myself out of running by accepting a non competitive job, I knew what would happen. That is a choice we have in the Reserves. No detailer pushing a job down your throat in the interests of your career or some far off promotion you might not be around to see.
 

Twitterpate03

Personnel Specialist
That is the objective. The main reason is to try and get around the age limits (34 for for Active and 42 for Reserve.
My intention when I joined the Reserves was just to serve. I was naive and didnt think about Officer or Enlisted. Though I will say that this has been my saving grace as I celebrated my 35th birthday a few months ago but am still going to OCS in a few weeks. Because I am prior enlisted my age did not disqualify me.

Just a late bloomer I guess. :icon_wink
 

a-6intruder

Richard Hardshaft
None
I would tread lightly if you are considering this course of action: you are essentially "riding orders."

The problem with doing this is that for every set of orders, you are going to receive one-off FITREPs wherein you are not compared against your peer group, which is vital to advancing (e.g., "The TOP LCDR in the division.").

The "One of One" can be mitigated by a soft breakout in the narrative. "Ranks 3 of 31 Active and Reserve O-Xs across all Services and Designators." But you have to work even harder to get that sort of ticket on your Fitrep as a Reservist. Some Commanders love Reserve guys; others use them as Fitrep fodder. I've been lucky and always been graded exclusively on my contributions and not used to play games to adjust averages.
 

JKD

Member
Two Comments:

FlyNSpy:
NPC canceled the regular Reserve Intelligence Officers Recall Board, but had an end of FY board the last two FYs (last minute announcements). I know one person accepted at the end of FY07 and another who applied at the end of FY08. I guess when they had a board in SEP; they didn't see a reason to hold a second board the next FEB. I think it had to do with filling spots before the FY closed or they lost them.

Wink:
About the CCC holding the application and the Chain of Command not supporting advancement, I've seen commands/COs refuse to write endorsement letters (rather than writing a weakly worded letter that they knew would prevent selection). Some applicants have no business being officers (I'm basing that comment on their performance and drive).
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Wink:
About the CCC holding the application and the Chain of Command not supporting advancement, I've seen commands/COs refuse to write endorsement letters (rather than writing a weakly worded letter that they knew would prevent selection). Some applicants have no business being officers (I'm basing that comment on their performance and drive).

Holding an application is Bull Sh!t, pure and simple. I don't care if he is a fixture at Mast, it is wrong. There is no place for type of personnel management and leadership in the Navy. If the guy truly is not officer material then you forward the package without a positive endorsement. Although I don't approve of simply refusing to forward and telling the guy tough cookies, at least that is better then playing games with an app so it misses a deadline. Even when I was recruiting, if I could not convince a guy to go away, I forwarded his package with the appropriate recommendation. I never buried an app. I was fortunate that the few times I was in the actual chain of command for an E to O application, they warranted a strong positive endorsement.
 

Clux4

Banned
As both Bevo and WInk mentioned, it's possible to be a SelTAR - stringing together sets of orders and recalls, one after another. I have a good buddy that's done it for over 8 years now. It's a lot easier than it used to be, but it's still a pretty uncertain existence. And if you did manage to string together 20 years of doing this, you'd still have to wait until you were 60 to collect any retirement.

I thought this applied to the National Guard and not Reserves. Why does the Marine Corps and I would assume the Navy have a sanctuary policy? I thought the whole purpose for that is to prevent those Reserve guys in question from entrying sanctuary which would make them eligible for an Active component retirement.
Could you clarify this?
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Could you clarify this?

Sorry, but I have no idea what "sanctuary" is. Well, except as in the case of Logan's Run. Anyway, if you retire before age 60 all you get is so called "grey area" benefits. You get everything but the good stuff, pension check and medical. The big ticket stuff comes at 60 and it applies to all branches of the Reserves.
 

a-6intruder

Richard Hardshaft
None
Brief tutorial on "sanctuary." Don't hold me to the exact years, because I am not able to search the regs right now.

Conceptually you all understand that when you enlist or get commissioned, you don't automatically get to stay until 20 years. There are several gates you must promote through or you will be asked to leave because you have failed to promote x number of times to the next rank and will achieve high year tenure.

Sanctuary is a term that is defined in some statute of Title 10 U.S. Code (I think). Basically, if a person (active or reserve) gets to 18 years of day for day service, the government will guarantee (short of issues with medical or misconduct) the individual can stay until 20 and obtain retirement. It is a protection to ensure as a cost cutting measure they just don't cut people loose in sight of the 20 year prize in order to keep from having to pay retirement.

If you roll to the Reserves, it gets a bit trickier. You accumulate points based on active duty time, annual training, drill periods, and in some cases, schools and correspondence courses, up to a maximum of theoretically 365 points per year. Using me as an example, I spent 9 full years on active duty, then the next 11 in the Reserves and the last 3 as a mobilized or full-time reservist supporting the active duty (some nuances that don't matter to the discussion). I have 25 qualifying years of service from commissioning, but only about 15 full years (day for day) of service (9 + 3 + about 3 of annual training orders). All of the accumulated points count toward retirement, which, if the Reservist made his/her promotion gates and participated enough each year to get credit, would enable him or her to receive a retirement pay check at age 60 that was based on a percentage of the base pay for an officer with his years of service. The more active duty time you have, the larger that percentage will be.

Prior to 9-11, it was almost unheard of for a Navy Reservist to accumulate enough points such that they could get 20 day for day years of credit. There wasn't enough work out there to guarantee full-time work as a Reservist. That has changed, and people who perhaps got out at year 12 or so from active duty, can now (especially if they are furloughed, laid off, or self-employed) pick up 6 month, one year, or two year orders, and do these back to back, or with very little lapse between gigs. Historically, as they approached about 16 years of full time service, they would immediately get flagged so someone could look very closely at their service history and deny orders if they even remotely could get to 18 years (and thus automatically be allowed to stay till 20 and get the retirememt paycheck immediately instead of waiting to 60).

Times have changes. Army is hurting worst of all - anyone willing to work seems able to meet sanctuary with little difficulty. Marines are the stingiest and probably only allow a very select few in specific skills. Navy is getting better, and I actually know three O-6s who met sanctuary eligibility this year and were permitted to stay. One is on the way to the Horn of Africa; the other two await their fate. But I think in each of their cases, they will only get 50% of an O-6 over 26 years Base Pay, because it took them 26 or more calendar years to make 20 full-time years.

Clear as mud?
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brief tutorial on "sanctuary." Don't hold me to the exact years, because I am not able to search the regs right now.

Conceptually you all understand that when you enlist or get commissioned, you don't automatically get to stay until 20 years. There are several gates you must promote through or you will be asked to leave because you have failed to promote x number of times to the next rank and will achieve high year tenure.

Sanctuary is a term that is defined in some statute of Title 10 U.S. Code (I think). Basically, if a person (active or reserve) gets to 18 years of day for day service, the government will guarantee (short of issues with medical or misconduct) the individual can stay until 20 and obtain retirement. It is a protection to ensure as a cost cutting measure they just don't cut people loose in sight of the 20 year prize in order to keep from having to pay retirement.

If you roll to the Reserves, it gets a bit trickier. You accumulate points based on active duty time, annual training, drill periods, and in some cases, schools and correspondence courses, up to a maximum of theoretically 365 points per year. Using me as an example, I spent 9 full years on active duty, then the next 11 in the Reserves and the last 3 as a mobilized or full-time reservist supporting the active duty (some nuances that don't matter to the discussion). I have 25 qualifying years of service from commissioning, but only about 15 full years (day for day) of service (9 + 3 + about 3 of annual training orders). All of the accumulated points count toward retirement, which, if the Reservist made his/her promotion gates and participated enough each year to get credit, would enable him or her to receive a retirement pay check at age 60 that was based on a percentage of the base pay for an officer with his years of service. The more active duty time you have, the larger that percentage will be.

Prior to 9-11, it was almost unheard of for a Navy Reservist to accumulate enough points such that they could get 20 day for day years of credit. There wasn't enough work out there to guarantee full-time work as a Reservist. That has changed, and people who perhaps got out at year 12 or so from active duty, can now (especially if they are furloughed, laid off, or self-employed) pick up 6 month, one year, or two year orders, and do these back to back, or with very little lapse between gigs. Historically, as they approached about 16 years of full time service, they would immediately get flagged so someone could look very closely at their service history and deny orders if they even remotely could get to 18 years (and thus automatically be allowed to stay till 20 and get the retirememt paycheck immediately instead of waiting to 60).

Times have changes. Army is hurting worst of all - anyone willing to work seems able to meet sanctuary with little difficulty. Marines are the stingiest and probably only allow a very select few in specific skills. Navy is getting better, and I actually know three O-6s who met sanctuary eligibility this year and were permitted to stay. One is on the way to the Horn of Africa; the other two await their fate. But I think in each of their cases, they will only get 50% of an O-6 over 26 years Base Pay, because it took them 26 or more calendar years to make 20 full-time years.

Clear as mud?

Thanks for the effort. But one of us isn't trying hard enough for me to fully understand. You didn't say anything about age. I understand the Navy not wanting guys to back door the full 20 year thing (actually I don't, if a guy serves, so be it). But what does waiting until 60 for my money have to do with sanctuary? Reading your explanation I could still argue for 55 years old, 65 years old or two years past retirement date regardless of age. I honestly always though it was actuarial or something. Just trying to save the government money. Whenever changing the age comes up in congress it always is shot down because it will cost them so much to put us Reserve slackers on the pension rolls for an extra 10 years or so. Yes, it is still clear as mud.
 

a-6intruder

Richard Hardshaft
None
But what does waiting until 60 for my money have to do with sanctuary? Reading your explanation I could still argue for 55 years old, 65 years old or two years past retirement date regardless of age. I honestly always though it was actuarial or something. Just trying to save the government money. Whenever changing the age comes up in congress it always is shot down because it will cost them so much to put us Reserve slackers on the pension rolls for an extra 10 years or so. Yes, it is still clear as mud.

Everything you say is correct, but needs some explanation.

This discussion is best when it takes place over beers and a piece of paper. I wil discuss reserve retirement compensation, which you probably already know most of; the rest is for those who are curious.

Most important item to remember - it is always about money. The government will spend millions of dollars to find a way to save fifty cents.

Second item - sanctuary was really designed to protect an active duty guy from being "fired" just to keep him from getting his pension. Because it is law, a reserve guy who is serving on active duty when the stars align (18 years of full-time duty) and he meets the sanctuary criteria can then take advantage of that law to guarantee himself full-time orders for the next two years to get him to 20 and the immediate paycheck.

If you play for 20 years you will get a retirement check, but you willl either get it starting the month after you retire, or you will wait until age 60. I'll use the two extremes to pain a better picture.

Scenario 1: A full time guy gets commissioned in 1989 at age 21. He has all the good deals and puts up w/ the crap for 20 years and retires as an O-5. Forgetting about high 3 / redux / or whatever program he was on, he will essentially get 2.5% x 20 years = 50% of the base pay of an O-5 over 20 (pay chart: http://www.navycs.com/09militarypaychart.html) or 50% of $8797 which is $4398.50. He starts getting that immeduately, or in this case, at age 41.

Scenario 2: A guy fresh out of college decides he wants to do something and gets a direct commission into the Navy Reserve as an O-1 on the same day in 1989, but because of his job, family, current demand for Reserves, etc, he finds he can only perform the absolute minimum, which is one weekend a month and 12 days a year of annual training. The math ends up being 60 points that year (48 drills, plus 12 days of training = 60).He is a smart and squared away dude, and manages to promote just like the first dude, and also achieves 20 good years and decided to retire. By law, he must wait to get that paycheck at age 60, and the paycheck will be roughly $723 per month to account for the fact that he served far less time during those 20 years than his full-time counterpart (60 points x 20 years = 1200 points divided by 365 days in a year = 3.2867 full-time (day for day) service x 2.5% = 8.22% of the O-5 over 20 Base Pay Salary ($8797) = $723.11 per month. And, because of current law, he has to wait to get that beer money until he hits age 60. There are subtle nuances, like he will probably get paid that 8.33% based on the pay scale in place when he hits age 60 and not the one in place the day he stopped wearing the uniform, but it serves as a good comparison.

There are many who have argued just to start paying pension the day a guy hits 20 calendar hears and both guys will start receiving pensions the same day, although one will get $4398.50 and the other will get $723.11, buecause that's the "fair" way to do it. People write their Congressmen. The American Legion, VFW, The Reserve Officers' Association, and the Naval Reserve Association all lobby each year for this. Each year the military strongly recommends against it, primarily because that huge extra retirement cost would come directly off the top of the Navy (or Army, or Air Force) budget each year. Personnel expenses (retirement, medical, etc) are already far and away the most expensive lines in the military budget. And the military leaders are a bit concerned that more people would bail to the reserves if they knew they would be able to bag a monthly retirement paycheck at age 41 for part-time service. So, the comprimise in these tough times is that for every 3 months or more of full-time mobilization, a reservist can receive that retirement check that many months prior to age 60 (a one year mobilization would enable the reservist to receive the paycheck beginning at age 59). Again, some subtleties like when that law began, and the fact that it is not yet retroactive to 9-11, as is being asked for.

Because so many Reservists are doing so much active duty, you are only now starting to see the sanctuary rule beginning to affect reservists such that some who bailed out of active duty late in life (12 -14 years of service) and went to the airlines but got furloughed, have the opportunity to do full-time Navy work and accumulate max points such that the law covering sanctuary protection now comes into play for them. It really was meant to protect a full-timer from getting kicked to the curb with nothing at year 18, but the law applies to a reservist if he is on active duty orders when he hits that magic date.

There's more to it, and if you are trying to figure out how this fits into your own master plan, the best thing to do is join me at Breezy Point on Friday, 20 Feb. I'll buy you a beer and we can map it all out and talk to you candidly (I think) about Reserves, life after active duty, airlines (from a spouse perspective), and the meaning of life. No hard sell.
 

utak

Registered User
Any recourse against the CCC other than a drop-kick? Why the hell would someone be so crass?

There was no recourse, other then CCC smugly telling the applicant "told you so" when it came back non-select. He then used the entire circumstance as ammo to discourage other applicants, saying "if SN X didn't get selected, you won't have a chance either".

And the entire time I was helping this applicant, the Chief dismissed my help/assistance/gouge as, and I quote, "second hand info".
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Everything you say is correct, but needs some explanation. ...

Thanks, excellent brief. Like I said before, I was never a personnel or manpower guy. 25 years served with one in Maintenance as a LT and one in Admin as an Ensign. 23 years in Operations, even as a staff weenie. I know so little about his stuff I am lucky I managed to get promoted, make 25 good years and a decent pension check, in a few years, anyway. If I was anywhere near Breezy Point I 'd meet you for that beer, as long as we discussed Operations. ;)
 

a-6intruder

Richard Hardshaft
None
Thanks, excellent brief. Like I said before, I was never a personnel or manpower guy. 25 years served with one in Maintenance as a LT and one in Admin as an Ensign. 23 years in Operations, even as a staff weenie. I know so little about his stuff I am lucky I managed to get promoted, make 25 good years and a decent pension check, in a few years, anyway. If I was anywhere near Breezy Point I 'd meet you for that beer, as long as we discussed Operations. ;)

I just picked up on it because I was tired of everyone thinking they knew what it was all about but mostly talking without a clue. And, for me, the sanctuary thing is actually becoming a real possibility...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brief tutorial on "sanctuary."....Navy is getting better, and I actually know three O-6s who met sanctuary eligibility this year and were permitted to stay....Clear as mud?

Thanks for the great summary, it jives along with what I have learned recently as a relatively new reservist. The only thing I would disagree with a little bit is the part about the Navy getting better about it. Maybe overall but I know an O-5 who was about 10 days away from getting sanctuary but was put on different orders to ensure that he did not. This was last summer on the Navy Staff.

One more thing about retirement in general, I think that the DoD is eventually goign to move more towards the reserve/civil servant model of retirement vs the other way. It might not happen since it would be so hard fought but I am not sure of the 20 years and retire at 50% will survive in my lifetime, it is just costing so much.

Thanks again for the great summary A-6Intruder! Those who are thinking about the reserves ought to read and heed, it may take a few minutes but it is valuable information.
 

jorgelito

PRO-REC INTEL
Wow, thanks for the "brief". That's a lot to digest, but I appreciate the gouge. My objective really, at the end of the day is to serve. I want to be Navy Intel officer first and foremost, but if I non-select, then I will gladly look at other options. I'd like to make it a career (hence trying to slide in from the Reserve side if it comes down to that). I will also put my money where my mouth is with regards to "wanting to serve" so I will look at Army and Coast Guard too.

It looks like I was denied for SWO in January and we'll see about INTEL in February I guess although my recruiter seems to believe there was a January board. He says he will check OTOOLS when it's back up and running.
 
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