Flying Warrant: A success or failure?

[wlawr005]

Roger that; my point was NO squadron CWO's in my experience would have 'fit' into the cockpit (tactical cockpit??) for a whole host of reasons. One was called 'Buddha-Baker', so we'll dismiss him out of hand, simply for height/weight/extreme-wretchedness considerations.

And of course, there's plenty of NROTC/BOAT-Skool/OCS 'pretty boys' that would fit my 'non-fit-cockpit' mold as well ... otherwise, why WOULD God have created flight downs in the first place ... ???

The WO's in question are not the salty ex-chief 28 years dudes that you may be thinking of. These flying warrants are mostly E-5/E-6 types with less than 10 years in and a minimum requirement of an Associate's Degree.

As for the other factors about the WOs having a chip on their shoulder, I believe it. I'm in a commissioning program and just about everybody kinda starts out with some sort of chip. In the STA-21 program though, we have three years as OCs to get rid of it and get focused on the future. The WOs have about 6 weeks in Newport...basically you're taking a dude that was an LPO/ALPO six months before and expecting him to fit in with a bunch of Ensigns.

 

[MIDNJAC]

The WO's in question are not the salty ex-chief 28 years dudes that you may be thinking of. These flying warrants are mostly E-5/E-6 types with less than 10 years in and a minimum requirement of an Associate's Degree.

As for the other factors about the WOs having a chip on their shoulder, I believe it. I'm in a commissioning program and just about everybody kinda starts out with some sort of chip. In the STA-21 program though, we have three years as OCs to get rid of it and get focused on the future. The WOs have about 6 weeks in Newport...basically you're taking a dude that was an LPO/ALPO six months before and expecting him to fit in with a bunch of Ensigns.

I always enjoyed seeing the STA-21/OC transformation.....I remember one guy, SPU-type, was just stashed for the spring while he was waiting for orientation week. Ended up being duty driver for myself and another mid who were going up to get flight physicals for our service selection packages. When he wasn't trying to pull rank on us (if that can even happen in NROTC), he was talking down to us and making it very clear that we were civilians and "how the hell do you even have ID cards?" It was pretty amusing, knowing what he had in store a couple months down the road. Next time I saw him as his company commander the next fall, he had made a complete 180. Turned out to be a really solid guy, just needed a little bit of a reality check to realize where he was now. I can definitely see how the CWO's might have retained some of this. That said, I remember working at API with one of the first ones, and he was one of the coolest, down to earth folks I met there. He also wanted Hornets, and didn't seem to know that they weren't eligible for Tacair. I didn't have the heart to tell him

 

[bunk22]

Makes sense about the CWO and tailhook from above. As far as performance, I would have to see the actual grades to make the call. I know all to well how one bad performer gets blown into a group.

 

[Swanee]

If the CWO's do worse because they are older with more distractions, why don't we see the same trend with the retreads?

 

[insanebikerboy]

Bunk,
I would guess that since Chopper and P-3 pukes have enlisted aircrew running around the aircraft while Bernoilli's are on wing/rotors, thats the reason CWOs fit better in those communities. CWO's would be bastard step children in the ALL O fixed wing CVN flight deck world, its bad enough sucking ass behind the boat as a JG... can't imagine it as an odd man out CWO. Witnessed the "can't take off the crow" thing with a STA dude in F-14s, made the rest of the folks around the ass clown miserable. Not competing for DH in the dog eat dog fighter world would make JO's probably wonder why the dude is taking the flight hours they could be getting qual upgrades with in jets that don't have much fatigue life left (applies to P-3's too). My 2c. Happy New Year.

I'd disagree in a sense, they may fit in a bit better with the enlisted guys in back, but with the reductions in flight hours I can see animosity building in any community as the Warrants come in and take hours from an already thinned out flight hour allotment, for the exact same reason you mentioned. Now guys are really fighting to get mins for aircraft commander/quals/mins for follow on orders, etc.

 

[ChunksJR]

If the CWO's do worse because they are older with more distractions, why don't we see the same trend with the retreads?

Good question...my first reaction is that retreads are warfare qualified. Somewhere, along the way, they had to face the fire IRT the learning process and a board of peers for a gold pin. There's a sense of the big picture (operationally, strategically, tactically, etc) that retreads seemed to have and priors didn't.

 

[ChunksJR]

I'd disagree in a sense, they may fit in a bit better with the enlisted guys in back, but with the reductions in flight hours I can see animosity building in any community as the Warrants come in and take hours from an already thinned out flight hour allotment, for the exact same reason you mentioned. Now guys are really fighting to get mins for aircraft commander/quals/mins for follow on orders, etc.

Red, good to see ya again.

Your feelings are the same that "we" had in 2005 when this plan was rolled out. It represents the JO POV, which is a valid point, considering that Jim123 hit the similar feeling above:

I figure that out of all aviators, a very small number of them have the strange problem that once they graduate from orange to gray aircraft, something about the different environment flips a switch inside their head for the worse and they perform poorly as a result of that.

What we have is a "current" but not "proficient" crew that is usually flying a multi-piloted, CRM-intensive environment. The difference from the O/W and FRS is the sheer fact that you are no longer fed the CRM, but rather have to create and nuture it. When you spread the wealth of limited flight hours, you endanger the whole for a benefit to a few (DH/potential DHs)...which is what the non-JO crowd who originated this idea (a majority of which were TACAIR) just don't necessarily understand.

 

[A4sForever]

If the CWO's do worse because they are older with more distractions....

No matter what ANY of you might think ... that's not a problem, in and of itself.

Why do you think CAPT's in the airlines are 'older' ??? And w/ multiple ex-wives and multiple girlfriends, they have more 'distractions' by definition. It's NOT just 'cause of age or seniority, as we still get rid of 'problem' people -- not often -- but we do. Same for the senior guys workin' for UNCLE when it comes to the cockpit they just 'disappear'.

"Older guys" (assuming 'they' still have good motor skills): it's because they are more 'experienced', knowledgeable, and have seen more/done more. And that stuff counts -- when YOU are more 'experienced' ... you'll get it.

P.S. ... 'older' ??? That's got nothing to do w/ it: as I can outfly most of you today & anyday -- anyway.

Believe it.

And I'm an "old guy".

 

[ChunksJR]

Assuming 'they' still have good motor skills: it's because they are more 'experienced', knowledgeable, and have seen more/done more.

Which goes to prove my other point above about distribution of the "experience, knowledge" to Flying CWOs can hurt a wardroom overall...QED

I can outfly most of you today & anyday -- anyway.

Yeah, but can you hover?

 

[helolumpy]

What do you think is the major cause of this? Does anyone else have any opinions as to why this maybe happening?

BLUF (to bring that back!!) The program is failing because the Navy selected from an open pool of candidates rather than targeting this program at specific rating skill sets.

When this program was first announced, my opinion was that it would allow for a career-flyer program like the Army has. You stay in squadrons and don't have to worry about DH or trying to compete for command, so all you have to do it be the best pilot and tactician you can.
This would provide benefit to the squadron in much the same manner as a 'Super JO' does; far more experience than a typical JO and not concerned with more hour-draining jobs that a DH has to worry about.

Of course this plan would only work if the CWO's were quality individuals who would excel in this position.

Where I think the program went off-track is that it was open to any and all ratings. The program should have specifically targeted the AW rating so you have personnel who already understand aircraft, systems, how flights actually occur as well as some tactics. But, with rates, YN's for example, competing on equal footing as AW's you have personnel who may have been in the Navy and maybe even in an aviation squadron but no little to nothing about aviation, the aircraft and the mission.

I still think the program has merit in light of the Navy's push to provide more aviation capability to the SEALS. One reason TF-160 is so S.H. is that they have guys who have done nothing for the last 15 years but fly the same aircraft and mission. I think everyone here would agree that if you could keep pilots in the cockpit for an entire career, then you'll have more proficient pilots.
If the Navy is serious about dedicating a capability to the SEALS, it would be prudent to look at how the other services (ARSOC and AFSOC specifically) man their units and try to emulate that model.

Having a pilot who could be in the cockpit for the next 15 years is a great asset if the capability is groomed effectively. Unfortunately, the Navy opened the program to those hand-chosen individuals who may look great on paper and may be an excellent LPOs or shift supervisors but have zero experience in actual aviation. The Navy should reevaluate the candidate pool for this program and target specific ratings for the CWO program.

This will provide recruitment benefit for those (or that) specific rating that is only eligible for the program. The recruiter can then discuss the CWO program as a benefit to enlisting in specific rates.

 

[pourts]

Stuff...

To go even further, maybe the program should take brand new enlistees and allow them to go through flight school and beyond as CWOs.

 

[webmaster]

But, with rates, YN's for example, competing on equal footing as AW's you have personnel who may have been in the Navy and maybe even in an aviation squadron but no little to nothing about aviation, the aircraft and the mission.

Well, I guess I better quit now then. Obviously my background as a yo-yo for eight years in the sub community didn't prepare me to be a pilot. Guess I shouldn't be an FRS Instructor Pilot or qualified ACTC Level 500 WTI either... sigh...

 

[helolumpy]

To go even further, maybe the program should take brand new enlistees and allow them to go through flight school and beyond as CWOs.

You mean like OCS but for CWO's?
You can do that in the Army, it an interesting idea, but if the Navy (IMO) were to do this, then it would need to be a much bigger program than it currently is; I'm thinking they'll need hundreds of folks going through CWOCS to make it worth the cost of the program.
An intriguing idea, but I doubt the Navy will head that direction.

 

[A4sForever]

...Yeah, but can you hover?

As that is an unnatural way to fly -- the answer would, of course be a considered & decided NO ...

 

[RobLyman]

WO1s and 2LTs come out of Army flight school (including AQC, which is the Army's FRS) pretty much identical. Afterwards, both get assigned ground jobs. The simple difference is that the warrants get programs to manage and the commissioned officers get people to manage/lead.

If the Navy isn't makng the WO pilot program work, either the candidates going in are less qualified or their training is substandard and diffferent from their officer counterparts. Are WO SNAs treated differently than commissioned SNAs?

I think you should onsidert the possibility that the small number of WOs in the Navy system are statistically too small to draw accurate conclusions from.

I left the Navy before flying warrants, so I have no first hand knowledge of the Nay WO pilot program. I do know the Army WO program well and the Navy commissioned side well. IMO, there is no reason the Navy can't make it work. It appears to me that those in charge of the Navy program either don't want it to work or don't know how to make it work (and are unwilling to learn).