phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
This is the new norm.
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
FITREP Code Words
- Thread starter zab1001
- Start date
Again, you're a sample size of one - sorry you've had a sub-optimal experience.
As I indicated before to MB, people just don't one day decide to band together and "change" the system. There's far too much institutional inertia for that and to think otherwise is idealistic and naive. Institutions evolve over time, so of course the Navy of today is different than the Navy of yesterday. Wishing it weren't so is a waste of time and effort. Believeing the notion that "if only the officers would stand up and change things we could go back to the good old days" is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's very easy for you to sit on the sidelines and cast stones. Your solution was to quit.As for MB, he hangs his dirty laundry here constantly, so let's not all start feeling sorry for the poor JO who's absorbing a lot of incoming rounds. He's getting exactly what he deserves (and expects).
I wouldn't say I am taking it 'hard', I just think your assessment of Navy leadership both flawed and largely wrong. I also think that you have some rose-tinted glasses when looking back at the past, especially when you didn't see it first hand. "The good ol' days weren't always so good......"
Criticism certainly ain't easy, as you are proving yourself. Both Brett and I have experience with several very different naval aviation communities and I have worked in a joint environment for years, for better or for worse, and we both say that our experiences don't quite match up to the doom and gloom of yours. To claim that Navy leadership is broken because of your own limited experience is awfully bold and a bit foolhardy. Navy leadership doesn't often shit sunshine and excellence but it sure isn't a broken bunch of wimps and nerds like you claim, at least in my limited experience. But then I also have never learned that 'arguing with idiots' doesn't get me very far.......
"I'm contending that older generations were tested far more and different leadership emerged that wouldn't be allowed to exist in today's world because our priorities and norms won't support it. "
Good leadership adjusts to the realities of the world the leaders live in.
Good leadership adjusts to the realities of the world the leaders live in.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Meeting all wickets/locking down your command out of fear of being relieved =/= leadership.
The people who push paper the best tend to get promoted. Out of my 8 fleet squadron COs, maybe 1 had better tactical knowledges and flying skills than the average JO. But damn could those other 7 push paper.
Right now, having 100% dental readiness is valued more than being able to lead the squadron into war.
The people who push paper the best tend to get promoted. Out of my 8 fleet squadron COs, maybe 1 had better tactical knowledges and flying skills than the average JO. But damn could those other 7 push paper.
Right now, having 100% dental readiness is valued more than being able to lead the squadron into war.
I heard a retired three star tell an appropriate story. During Desert Shield he was one of Scwartzkopf's planners. The plans shop was getting pissed with all the politics that kept occurring and changing their plan. While bitching, this 3 star (O-6 at the time) ask the GEN why didn't someone senior stand-up to all the BS. Schwartzkopf just smiled and said, "what good is falling on your sword if no one notices?"
So while I will agree with AP that some changes in leadership selection may improve the tactical effectiveness of the Navy. I think Brett is spot on with the realistic opinion that a small group is not going to effect this change.
I just saw that in 2011 we've already relieved more CO's than in 2010. This begs the question, why the sudden uptick in reliefs? Is it the quality of people in the Navy en masse? Could it be the selection process if faulty? Maybe we have our values placed on the wrong attributes (MB's comment on tactial proficiency versus paperwork skills)? Or is senior leadership no longer covering for subordinates and allowing behavior that previously has been overlooked?
Those are much better questions to debate WRT the long term success of our service. That's just my opinion, I may be wrong...
Hate to say it but if your people aren't ready medically then you can't lead them into war. If you were allowed to take them not ready, then when you are at the end of the earth in a warzone, they will be broken and your organization will be of no use. Somewhere, during leadership training, someone once told me that you had to that you had to take care of your people...even if they didn't want the help......
Can someone please lock this thread - I am sick of listening to two people who are just looking to spew their bitterness and reach for anything....
Here is what some people in this thread are failing to understand:
It's Big Navy's team, Big Navy's field, and Big Navy's ball. To me, that makes it obvious that Big Navy (which is not the JO's) gets to say who the winners and losers are going to be.
Don't like that? That's cool; keep it to yourself. Or suffer the very obvious consequences. Don't say nobody warned you, because it's been like that forever.
(Yes, forever. The rules may change with the times, but the requirement to shut your goddamned pie hole and toe the line has been eternal).
It's Big Navy's team, Big Navy's field, and Big Navy's ball. To me, that makes it obvious that Big Navy (which is not the JO's) gets to say who the winners and losers are going to be.
Don't like that? That's cool; keep it to yourself. Or suffer the very obvious consequences. Don't say nobody warned you, because it's been like that forever.
(Yes, forever. The rules may change with the times, but the requirement to shut your goddamned pie hole and toe the line has been eternal).
The military, and military leadership, has never been as good as the supposed good old days.
Would you rather have served with the military in the days of race riots and open pot smoking? Perhaps during the post-Korean War drawdown or the garrison military of the '20s and '30s? Even WWII--do you really think all the commanders who were promoted from the street to CO in the space of four years really knew what the hell they were doing?
It's always been fucked up, just the way it's fucked up has changed. Stay, go, whatever--I don't give a shit. I just don't buy the whole "I'm bucking the system" line. All each of us can do is to express our opinions within the constraints of good order and discipline, and when we're the ones in charge of something to run it according to our consciences.
Would you rather have served with the military in the days of race riots and open pot smoking? Perhaps during the post-Korean War drawdown or the garrison military of the '20s and '30s? Even WWII--do you really think all the commanders who were promoted from the street to CO in the space of four years really knew what the hell they were doing?
It's always been fucked up, just the way it's fucked up has changed. Stay, go, whatever--I don't give a shit. I just don't buy the whole "I'm bucking the system" line. All each of us can do is to express our opinions within the constraints of good order and discipline, and when we're the ones in charge of something to run it according to our consciences.
Being a good manager is more important for a CO than being a good tactician.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Spanky hit what I was trying to say on the head.
Medical/Dental is important, if it keeps people from working. Getting LTJG Bagadonuts in for his 6 month cleaning, when he has no dental problems and making that the number one priority is stupid.
I have been pulled out of my "box/bubble/zone" so many times for stupid shit.. And rarely is the "sir it's done, it's in the X folder, I'll get it for you when I land or LT Whacker (the SDO) can print it for you as well" an acceptable answer. Even when walking for night RLQs with the noobs in the plane.
Then there is the tactical thing. I had 2 COs that would not go to the boat at night. Ever. Didn't know how to put the goggles on their helmet, nevermind effectively use them, but they had no problem with telling me what was "wrong" with my NVG flying, and how I should not care that FFG XX does not have working NVG lights. My current XO is probably the most tactically saavy/best stick I have had in the front office my whole career. It's a refreshing change.
Medical/Dental is important, if it keeps people from working. Getting LTJG Bagadonuts in for his 6 month cleaning, when he has no dental problems and making that the number one priority is stupid.
I have been pulled out of my "box/bubble/zone" so many times for stupid shit.. And rarely is the "sir it's done, it's in the X folder, I'll get it for you when I land or LT Whacker (the SDO) can print it for you as well" an acceptable answer. Even when walking for night RLQs with the noobs in the plane.
Then there is the tactical thing. I had 2 COs that would not go to the boat at night. Ever. Didn't know how to put the goggles on their helmet, nevermind effectively use them, but they had no problem with telling me what was "wrong" with my NVG flying, and how I should not care that FFG XX does not have working NVG lights. My current XO is probably the most tactically saavy/best stick I have had in the front office my whole career. It's a refreshing change.