F-4 Mugs McKeown "Back-Flip" dogfight, '72 before a MIG kill

[MachTuck]

Best & strangest dogfight maneuver I've heard of. Anybody know about this? Know of any details?, for example how much yaw it was (not too much or it'll flat spin), and how much pitch you'd get? This used on the F-14-18-35 etc.? A-4 maybe too?

Mugs used a stunt to get out of the gunsights of a MIG-17 once that is puzzling in some ways. (Thomas Shover's (VF-161) son Chris claims that it was actually co-invented by Tom and Jerry Sawatski (Top Gun). Chris has tried to get Tom to call me for a couple of months now about this. Nothing yet. Not sure he wants to talk about it anymore.)

Mugs McKeown was in a hard turn, he first unloaded g's (to near zero alpha), ruddered the nose down to get some sideslip, then maybe(?) reversed to sideslip the other way with big yaw rate, then quickly pulled a lot of aft stick to "back-flip", or, in Mug's own words "tumbled end over end".

Anybody know of this, and whether or not big pieces don't fall off any aircraft trying this?
Seems like an F-4 and most birds would be too stable in pitch for this to go through 360 degrees. Forget most simulators since unsteady (high alpha, high body rate) aerodynamics are not fully modelled well on a computer.

 

[Griz882]

Probably where Pete “Maverick” Mitchell learned the move.

 

[jmcquate]

Or..........stay with me, Mugs was Lt. Mitchells dad who was shot down over some line on a map. He did it right. F-4s, MiGs like fire flies, when is a better time to tail slide a Phantom?

 

[Griz882]

Or..........stay with me, Mugs was Lt. Mitchells dad who was shot down over some line on a map. He did it right. F-4s, MiGs like fire flies, when is a better time to tail slide a Phantom?

Even better!

 

[MachTuck]

The official U.S. Navy archives office actually sent me an audio file of a Mugs interview from the 70's, and it didn't shed a lot of light on it except it kind of sounded like Mugs thought he didn't do it right or something, not really clear.

Surely this has been talked about over the years.

@jmcquate , I'm not understanding how you can "tail slide a Phantom", as you say, at those high air speeds since the wing and tail are swept back and will bend, maybe to breaking. Control surfaces I guess could hold on with backward flow, though its unstable. Short enough time might mean it could all hang together.
@Griz882, Movies etc. usually show use of speed brakes (old Top Gun movie), & trailers for the new TopGun movie coming out might show 1 (??) rapid pitch-up with alpha limiting. "Red Tails" had a back-flip scene, and one other cheesy show I caught a clip of recently had one, accuracy doubtful, really movie-magic.

The Mugs F-4 move, using Mug's own words of "tumbled end over end", certainly didn't have stability augmentation alpha limiting anyway. The Phantom II had limited-authority rate damping is about it.

 

[Griz882]

I imagine it is not a maneuver you can readily add to your fighter pilot kit bag. The F-4 had a host of very unique attributes and issues that likely allowed for such a trick. For example, the F-4 was known to pitch nose up on launch and could actually snap up to a stall if it had enough speed. Perhaps Mugs matched those parameters and rode out the maneuver? In any case, nothing is going to snap off an aircraft designed for the type of flying environment the F-4 was designed for.

 

[MachTuck]

As of this morning, a total of 2 USAF F-4 pilots have told me this is improbable, doesn't sound right the way it's described, and/or is really describing a jinking maneuver. One of my USAF sources says he will contact a friend of his who shot down 2 MIGs in 1972, who you'd think would know some story on this.

@Griz882, I do see the F-4 pitching up when leaving the deck on launch on some videos. I had thought it was because the catapult held the nose down during launch, and as soon as it was free, an aft stick during launch, held, would snap the nose up. Launches where the pilot isn't pulling the stick aft hard (as seen by tail position in old videos) leave the deck level.

Also, the F-4 was known for annoying pitch stick sensitivity issues near Mach 1, no doubt due to nascent shock waves forming. (I think from an excerpt out of Robin Olds' book, not sure where I got that.)
Notably, the tail anhedral of the F-4 was never duplicated again by designers, who instead always went with low horizontal tails to bite a lot of air at high AoA. Could be the F-4 had a strange aero flow phenomenon with that tail being aligned with the rough flow coming off the fuselage.

 

[jmcquate]

I had thought it was because the catapult held the nose down during launch, and as soon as it was free, an aft stick during launch, held, would snap the nose up.

F-4s are bridle launched. It has nothing to do with the nose. The F-4 nose gear would extend on deck to put some artificial alfa on the jet prior to launch

 

[AIRMMCPORET]

Best & strangest dogfight maneuver I've heard of. Anybody know about this? Know of any details?, for example how much yaw it was (not too much or it'll flat spin), and how much pitch you'd get? This used on the F-14-18-35 etc.? A-4 maybe too?

Mugs used a stunt to get out of the gunsights of a MIG-17 once that is puzzling in some ways. (Thomas Shover's (VF-161) son Chris claims that it was actually co-invented by Tom and Jerry Sawatski (Top Gun). Chris has tried to get Tom to call me for a couple of months now about this. Nothing yet. Not sure he wants to talk about it anymore.)

Mugs McKeown was in a hard turn, he first unloaded g's (to near zero alpha), ruddered the nose down to get some sideslip, then maybe(?) reversed to sideslip the other way with big yaw rate, then quickly pulled a lot of aft stick to "back-flip", or, in Mug's own words "tumbled end over end".

Anybody know of this, and whether or not big pieces don't fall off any aircraft trying this?
Seems like an F-4 and most birds would be too stable in pitch for this to go through 360 degrees. Forget most simulators since unsteady (high alpha, high body rate) aerodynamics are not fully modelled well on a computer.

Gutsiest move move I ever saw.?

 

[MachTuck]

Sure make fun of the very-80's script from the old Top Gun movie all you want, yet who among us isn't going to see the new Top Gun out May 27 ? Seriously, movie plotlines are disgusting if you've had anything to do with real stuff. Selling tickets, gotta do it.

 

[AIRMMCPORET]

Sure make fun of the very-80's script from the old Top Gun movie all you want, yet who among us isn't going to see the new Top Gun out May 27 ? Seriously, movie plotlines are disgusting if you've had anything to do with real stuff. Selling tickets, gotta do it.

Oh I’m going to see it.??⚓️?

I

 

[MachTuck]

Saw the new Top Gun movie. No McKeown-Shover-Sawatzky "tumble end over end" alleged maneuver in it. Who do I call at Paramount Pictures to complain about it? Maybe directly to Tom Cruise? It could also be they recognize the alpha-limiters (g-limiters) in the newer jets, but I doubt it.

 

[Griz882]

Saw the new Top Gun movie. No McKeown-Shover-Sawatzky "tumble end over end" alleged maneuver in it. Who do I call at Paramount Pictures to complain about it? Maybe directly to Tom Cruise? It could also be they recognize the alpha-limiters (g-limiters) in the newer jets, but I doubt it.

With reference to overall question, it’s called a Lomcevak maneuver. The Phantom guys I know say it is possible, but they have never seen it done. With reference to the movie it was a Pugachev Cobra like shown here…

The incredible Cobra Manoeuvre (Pugachev's Cobra)

The Cobra Manoeuvre, also known as Pugachev's Cobra or Pugachev Cobra is a very spectacular, dramatic and demanding aerobatics manoeuvre in which an aircraft...

www.google.com

 

[jmcquate]

It could also be they recognize the alpha-limiters (g-limiters) in the newer jets, but I doubt it.

There's a remedy for that and they show it in the movie.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Saw the new Top Gun movie. No McKeown-Shover-Sawatzky "tumble end over end" alleged maneuver in it. Who do I call at Paramount Pictures to complain about it? Maybe directly to Tom Cruise? It could also be they recognize the alpha-limiters (g-limiters) in the newer jets, but I doubt it.

It’s a g-limiter, not an alpha limiter. You can pull unlimited alpha in the F/A-18. Tailslides are easily possible in the Rhino, although intentional tailslides are prohibited by NATOPS. Waivers do exist for test and OCF training, so most pilots have done at least a couple of tailslides in their career. The resulting departure from controlled flight makes its tactical utility… dubious, at best.

As for the g-limiter, pilots can override it using a “paddle switch” on the stick (actually shown in Top Gun 2 when they pull an excessive amount of g during their “safe escape” maneuver). I was impressed they included that detail.

During my Hornet/Rhino days, pulling the paddle switch in combat was generally not discussed outside of an emergency, since you’d not only overstress the aircraft, but you’d bleed airspeed at an excessive rate and then… what? Assuming you stayed awake, you’d be selling a number of follow-on options granted by the speed you had 5 seconds ago. To take advantage of the override-increase in g, the airplane has to be going quite fast. After a lot of tactical maneuvering, it’s unlikely the Rhino is going fast enough to “need” the >7.5g. The paddle switch was there as a last-ditch to get every bit of g possible to avoid a collision with something (like the ground), assuming the jet was actually fast enough to have that g available. In that sense, Top Gun 2 uses the paddle switch reasonably well, particularly by Hollywood standards.