• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

F-35B/C Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
MCAS Beaufort went through months of no precision approach capability, repeatedly. It gets cloudy there, and the hornet squadrons there could barely meet minimum hours even with nice weather. The PAR is a POS. Period.

I wasn’t talking about a PAR “malfunctioning”, although I have first hand stories of fully operable PAR’s and their controllers almost killing me and friends.

I’m talking about a system so antiquated it’s difficult to fix. It’s like a priceless grandfather clock except you can only have it worked on by 18 year olds.

It’s well past time to move on.

You almost died on a PAR? I'd love to hear the story.

Sorry to hear that it's that rough at Beaufort. I only have my anecdotal experience to go on at all the Navy bases with PARs.

Like I said- make an unemotional argument with dollars and readiness numbers backed up by data....or not.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
You almost died on a PAR? I'd love to hear the story.

Sorry to hear that it's that rough at Beaufort. I only have my anecdotal experience to go on at all the Navy bases with PARs.

Like I said- make an unemotional argument with dollars and readiness numbers backed up by data....or not.
My PAR experiences almost causing death were at an Air Force base and a Navy base.

I don’t do war college papers because I’m not in that business anymore.
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
My PAR experiences almost causing death were at an Air Force base and a Navy base.

I don’t do war college papers because I’m not in that business anymore.

I'll look for the HAZREPS or Approach articles if you can point me in the right direction.

Understand that you're an airline guy now. That's cool and doesn't discount your experience one bit. It also doesn't give you license to sit in the cheap seats and point out problems and guesses at solutions without data (or it does, this is just the internet after all). Emotional arguments (see: "I bet" and "I think") are just that-guesses.

No one is asking you to do a War College paper. If there's a need for a study to see whether it makes sense from a training/readiness/combat perspective- all someone has to do is submit the request to NPS (not USNWC) for someone (a student there) to do the study. (You don't have to be the one to do it.) It's unbelievably simple to submit the request through your (or now some else's) COC. Someone could literally be doing the study next semester.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I'll look for the HAZREPS or Approach articles if you can point me in the right direction.

Understand that you're an airline guy now. That's cool and doesn't discount your experience one bit. It also doesn't give you license to sit in the cheap seats and point out problems and guesses at solutions without data (or it does, this is just the internet after all). Emotional arguments (see: "I bet" and "I think") are just that-guesses.

No one is asking you to do a War College paper. If there's a need for a study to see whether it makes sense from a training/readiness/combat perspective- all someone has to do is submit the request to NPS (not USNWC) for someone (a student there) to do the study. (You don't have to be the one to do it.) It's unbelievably simple to submit the request through your (or now some else's) COC. Someone could literally be doing the study next semester.
That sounds easy. Let me know how it goes.
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
That sounds easy. Let me know how it goes.
I'm not the one with the issue with PARs. They've worked really well for me for awhile. If you're satisfied to leave the problem that almost killed you for someone else to fix without providing your data, then I'm not sure how to help you.

If you want a solution- there's a path. If you just want to complain without moving things forward..... that's kind of on you.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I'm not the one with the issue with PARs. They've worked really well for me for awhile. If you're satisfied to leave the problem that almost killed you for someone else to fix without providing your data, then I'm not sure how to help you.

If you want a solution- there's a path. If you just want to complain without moving things forward..... that's kind of on you.
You sound like you’re well on your way, sir
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
So were you IFR certified or just equipped? That's what I was getting at. As I recall, you were with PHI then, which nowadays is one of the big four. Fleet-wide, for at least several of the sub-companies, IFR-equipped VFR aircraft is relatively new for fleet-wide. That's not to say they didn't exist beforehand (which it sounds like yours was).

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how VFR mins can be below the definition of VFR. Yeah, yeah, I get it, day cloud clearances. I know the FAA has some confusing VFR minimum chart now, which thankfully I don't have to memorize as ours is more restrictive (and much simpler).
We were VFR only but IFR equipped (decently so) - the only instrument training was the one or 2 approachs under the hood every 6 months as an emergency procedure only. A lot of the doctrine we were taught was written by former Army guys from the era of “thou shall not lose visual contact with the ground...”

I was the only non former Army guy at our base of 6 pilots and they scoffed at my Navy attitude towards instrument flying - before I left PHI we hired another Navy guy - an active SELRES cadre at what was then HCS-4.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
This is not my issue or problem. However, I will do everything I can to help you find a solution. PM me or post your data here. Let's fix this wrong.

You’re suggesting some person do an NPS research project on the cost-benefit analysis for a GCA-ILS-RNAV approaches?

The private sector did that decades ago for us and the results were pretty damn obvious. Not to be flippant, but this is something that doesn’t need a lot of head scratching.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Counterpoint - I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've lost training due to not being equipped with precision approach capability and sat on the bench while the USAF F-15s and F-16s launch. That, AND when the weather has been poor but flyable having to use a more conservative joker/bingo due to 3710 requirements and losing more opportunities to train AND for some time not being IMC TR players leading to lost training opportunities.

That breeds a lack of experience and confidence in fighting in IMC, and if you don't practice it then it may be a challenge to MAXIMIZE your capabilities while executing SAFELY.

Downside of flying from land a jet that was designed for the boat.

In my time flying out of Oceana and Atsugi I can't count on one finger the number of times where having a couple extra hundred feet of weather mins made me miss out on training. Sure, I cancelled plenty of flights due to weather but not because the weather was at 500' and without a civ ILS I needed 800' or if that was the case that I actually wanted to fly in the shitty weather.

I do however remember launching several times in shit, cold weather, to go up and see that the tops were at 36,000', and then I'd get to come back and shoot some shitty PARs. The more useful training at that point was cancelling whatever SFWT flight I was doing and file for KNQX and getting a dolphin sandwich for lunch.

I agree with your point about IMC fighting and wish we had some IMC training rules. I'm pretty sure the AF have something like that.
 

whitesoxnation

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
In my time flying out of Oceana and Atsugi I can't count on one finger the number of times where having a couple extra hundred feet of weather mins made me miss out on training. Sure, I cancelled plenty of flights due to weather but not because the weather was at 500' and without a civ ILS I needed 800' or if that was the case that I actually wanted to fly in the shitty weather.

I do however remember launching several times in shit, cold weather, to go up and see that the tops were at 36,000', and then I'd get to come back and shoot some shitty PARs. The more useful training at that point was cancelling whatever SFWT flight I was doing and file for KNQX and getting a dolphin sandwich for lunch.

I agree with your point about IMC fighting and wish we had some IMC training rules. I'm pretty sure the AF have something like that.

Maybe from flying on the Pen a decent amount I’ve had an abnormally high amount of shitty situations with the WX deteriorating to below TACAN mins or rolexing/cancelling events due to terminal WX even though the working area was fine.

Like Brett said the USAF has IMC TRs. I’ve also wondered why we have a hard/soft deck but the USAF just uses a transition altitude. I wonder if it’s an outdated training rule from the days of when flight controls weren’t as good as they are now and it was more common to depart. Fighting 5k’ above an undercast seriously limits training opportunities and quality.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Maybe from flying on the Pen a decent amount I’ve had an abnormally high amount of shitty situations with the WX deteriorating to below TACAN mins or rolexing/cancelling events due to terminal WX even though the working area was fine.

Like Brett said the USAF has IMC TRs. I’ve also wondered why we have a hard/soft deck but the USAF just uses a transition altitude. I wonder if it’s an outdated training rule from the days of when flight controls weren’t as good as they are now and it was more common to depart. Fighting 5k’ above an undercast seriously limits training opportunities and quality.

Guys flying UDP or expeditionary Marines (flying in Korea or some desert somewhere) are a whole different ball of wax. The problem is they are the minority when it comes to the overall NAE Tacair community.
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
So we've established no ILS is a lack of funding? I sort of understand it for the Navy, but the Marines are down to two F/A 18C boat squadrons (I think), having the capability that is the same as a Piper Tomahawk that I learned to fly in seems like a no brainier for land based assets...............but what do I know.
 
Top