F-35 article

[Swanee]

If memory serves, AF studied that about five years ago. Determined would be $10B in non recurring costs just to get the line back up, and a 100 aircraft buy would have been something like a $200M unit cost.

There is a war college paper written by an F-22 guy on the acquisitions process the F-22 followed. It's interesting that by cutting the program every couple of months by 5 airplanes at a time, until the end strength of 187 was set in stone, cost us a shit ton of money. If we committed to the same amount of $$ much earlier on we could have had about twice the amount of airplanes for the same cost.

Now I get it, more airplanes means a bigger program and higher costs. But it was eye opening to see the numbers and the math and how congress in the mid to late 90s really reduced the size of the community. Towards the end we ended up not saving any money when the last 20-30 airplanes were cut.

 

[Flash]

Honest question here: what is wrong with the F-22? Apparently the Air Force has started taking delivery of F-15EX's, why can't the service(s) buy more Raptors?

They were supposed to preserve the tooling and did, I believe going so far as to document and even film the folks building the last ones to record how it was done, but apparently they did a really crappy job of it and when checked later the tooling was a mess and so as others have said restarting the line would be cost prohibitive.

There is a war college paper written by an F-22 guy on the acquisitions process the F-22 followed. It's interesting that by cutting the program every couple of months by 5 airplanes at a time, until the end strength of 187 was set in stone, cost us a shit ton of money. If we committed to the same amount of $$ much earlier on we could have had about twice the amount of airplanes for the same cost.

Now I get it, more airplanes means a bigger program and higher costs. But it was eye opening to see the numbers and the math and how congress in the mid to late 90s really reduced the size of the community. Towards the end we ended up not saving any money when the last 20-30 airplanes were cut.

The USAF didn't do itself any favors by fixating on the F-22 while not listening to the SECDEF at the time, Gates, while the final production line determination was happening. After telling the service repeatedly to figure out more and better ways to beef up its support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan they pointedly ignored him and went behind his back to lobby Congress for more F-22's. Good way to get your most precious program cut and get yourself fired is to undercut your boss.

While the USAF attitude might seem justified to some now at the time they were incredibly tone deaf and willfully ignorant of the priorities at the time, we were at war after all. The service was being obstinate and thought they would outlast or outmaneuver their boss and stymied him and his priorities in several ways, even I saw it as a lowly AO at the time, and they paid the price to include whatever chance they had at getting more F-22's. After the stupidity I saw, they got what they deserved.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Having been a DoD contractor, it's easy to understand how the raw plans, tooling, and legacy knowledge for manufacturing a widget (Raptor) can get lost or forgotten once the contract is over.

But as a taxpayer I can see how that would be kind of hard to fathom/ doesn't compute (i.e. "Didn't you tell Lockheed to hand over all the schematics as part of the contract? If not, can you just go back and ask them for it now?").

Hopefully the DoD has learned this lesson for future procurements (B-21, MQ-25, FFGX, etc) but again, the recovering contractor in me is doubtful.

 

[taxi1]

Hopefully the DoD has learned this lesson for future procurements (B-21, MQ-25, FFGX, etc) but again, the recovering contractor in me is doubtful.

The contractors know where the short hairs are. Plus, the institutional knowledge of building the aircraft, ship, etc.

The idea of delivering the documents and being able to build the thing reminds me of one of those Kung Fu movies, where the protagonist finds the secret guide to the Monkey Fist style that allows him to defeat the foe. That, and 40,000 hours of practice.

It's getting even worse now, as the data is digital and before you know it, no one has an app to read Solid Edge CAD files generated by software from 20 versions ago.

3D printing is all the rage these days with tooling being a big point of attack, for the reasons you discussed.

 

[Pags]

Drawings, toolings, and jigs are only part of it. Even if you have all that stuff you still don't have the experienced workforce that knows all the hidden tricks that don't make it into the official documentation.

 

[Swanee]

The USAF didn't do itself any favors by fixating on the F-22 while not listening to the SECDEF at the time, Gates, while the final production line determination was happening. After telling the service repeatedly to figure out more and better ways to beef up its support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan they pointedly ignored him and went behind his back to lobby Congress for more F-22's. Good way to get your most precious program cut and get yourself fired is to undercut your boss.

While the USAF attitude might seem justified to some now at the time they were incredibly tone deaf and willfully ignorant of the priorities at the time, we were at war after all. The service was being obstinate and thought they would outlast or outmaneuver their boss and stymied him and his priorities in several ways, even I saw it as a lowly AO at the time, and they paid the price to include whatever chance they had at getting more F-22's. After the stupidity I saw, they got what they deserved.

The AF even went as far as to demo that the LRIP F-22 could drop JDAM, or be a bomb truck for a buddy lase, and briefly gave it an F/A-22 naming convention to try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes as the first ones were being delivered.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Hmmmm speaking of not repeating the sins of the past :

GAO recommends CH-53K production cap until testing is complete

The US Government Accountability Office (GAO) has recommended that the US Navy caps the production of Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion helicopters to six aircraft per year until the platform completes initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E)

www.key.aero

 

[jmcquate]

Drawings, toolings, and jigs are only part of it. Even if you have all that stuff you still don't have the experienced workforce that knows all the hidden tricks that don't make it into the official documentation.

When I was at JSC in the mid-90's, I couldn't tell you how many times I requested replacement schematics from Rockwell for the STS fleet. Each time at a hefty cost to the taxpayers. Records and Knowledge management matter.

 

[ChuckMK23]

When I was at JSC in the mid-90's, I couldn't tell you how many times I requested replacement schematics from Rockwell for the STS fleet. Each time at a hefty cost to the taxpayers. Records and Knowledge management matter.

Until recently, the C-17 sim did not have the modeling data to effectively replicate AAR well enough to where a pilot could maintain currency in that particular evolution. Boeing had the data it just chose not to share it with the AF and sim provider until the AF wrote a sizable check to "license" the data. Its well regarded in AF circles as legalized extortion.

 

[scoolbubba]

Until recently, the C-17 sim did not have the modeling data to effectively replicate AAR well enough to where a pilot could maintain currency in that particular evolution. Boeing had the data it just chose not to share it with the AF and sim provider until the AF wrote a sizable check to "license" the data. Its well regarded in AF circles as legalized extortion.

This is what happens when lawyers paid by a multi-billion dollar corporation face off against contracting officers from a DOD service. DODs counsel just isn't that good at writing contracts. Loopholes that any JD could drive a dumptruck through make it all the way into a signed contract.

 

[jmcquate]

This ^

 

[Pags]

When I was at JSC in the mid-90's, I couldn't tell you how many times I requested replacement schematics from Rockwell for the STS fleet. Each time at a hefty cost to the taxpayers. Records and Knowledge management matter.

Yep. Theyd probably already been provided to the USG as a CDRL and then forgotten. USG agencies are B A D at big data.

 

[jmcquate]

Theyd probably already been provided to the USG as a CDRL and then forgotten.

That's exactly what happened.

 

[Pags]

This is what happens when lawyers paid by a multi-billion dollar corporation face off against contracting officers from a DOD service. DODs counsel just isn't that good at writing contracts. Loopholes that any JD could drive a dumptruck through make it all the way into a signed contract.

Consider your data rights up front because the OEM sure is. In most cases the USG arguably has rights to a lot of what the OEM calls proprietary but it takes a lot time, money, and lawyers to win that fight.

 

[Pags]

That's exactly what happened.

It was filed in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."