Extended stays at the hold short for NAS Whidbey Growlers?

[helolumpy]

My Jedi Master…with respect…still doesn't answer the question. WTF is it about the short-field gear that tires can't roll over it…or that "wide bodies" don't understand about landing beyond it? This does not appear (to your many masterless Ronin followers) to be "rocket science".

R1, I can't speak to Whidbey, but at NAS Jax the problem with short field gear is when the P-3 and now the P-8 land on it.

We tend to get the short field gear knocked out because the gear is relatively close to the TDZ, especially with the VP FRS here and some of the landings are quite "sporty". The RAG is in the business of teaching students to fly the profile IAW the pubs. They do NOT want to teach the students bad habits (or different procedures) because the gear is or is not rigged.

I would equate it to tacair guys around the boat. You do not deviate from the defines, airspeed and rate of descent of the pattern. For the VP RAG, they do not want to deviate from the pattern.
During an AMB for a helo crash the senior member for a RIO. He was shocked that we didn't have a defined "on speed" for an approach and he kept reiterating that every approach to the boat must be by the numbers. This is how VP-30 is teaching students and if the gear is in the way, we'll the AG crews will have to reset it.

The long field gear is almost never knocked out of battery due to the MPA.

 

[Renegade One]

R1, I can't speak to Whidbey, but at NAS Jax the problem with short field gear is when the P-3 and now the P-8 land on it.

We tend to get the short field gear knocked out because the gear is relatively close to the TDZ, especially with the VP FRS here and some of the landings are quite "sporty". The RAG is in the business of teaching students to fly the profile IAW the pubs. They do NOT want to teach the students bad habits (or different procedures) because the gear is or is not rigged.

I would equate it to tacair guys around the boat. You do not deviate from the defines, airspeed and rate of descent of the pattern. For the VP RAG, they do not want to deviate from the pattern.
During an AMB for a helo crash the senior member for a RIO. He was shocked that we didn't have a defined "on speed" for an approach and he kept reiterating that every approach to the boat must be by the numbers. This is how VP-30 is teaching students and if the gear is in the way, we'll the AG crews will have to reset it.

The long field gear is almost never knocked out of battery due to the MPA.

Okay…as long as you guy are happy and have learned to live with this stuff…I'm out.

 

[webmaster]

Neither of which are germane to my question. "R1 is OUT!"

Okay…as long as you guy are happy and have learned to live with this stuff…I'm out.

Double post? Which is it?

I KEED!!! Smiley face in effect!

 

[xj220]

Nothing special. Just a running joke/accusation against P3 bubbas that up at Whidbey we are accused of knocking the arresting gear out of battery (on purpose or otherwise).

More for sport really. One night P-3s knocked the gear out of battery eight times which is a record I believe. The jets hog the pattern doing FCLPs and turn right over our hanger, and we have to wait 20+ min for them at the hold short. I guess it's a way of us messing with each other without really doing it intentionally.

 

[helolumpy]

..., and we have to wait 20+ min for them at the hold short....

Says every NAS Jax helo pilot when there are 3 P-3's at the hold short awaiting IFR release!

 

[Gatordev]

Says every NAS Jax helo pilot when there are 3 P-3's at the hold short awaiting IFR release!

Damn, you beat me to it. It was even a bigger deal in the T-34s. Sitting and waiting to take off from NIP, we had *just* enough gas to get the evolutions complete before having to almost BINGO back to Mayport...and then there would some P-3 pointed the wrong way on the runway...

If I recall, I think I was actually waiting on Webmaster at one point.

 

[Random Task]

My Jedi Master…with respect…still doesn't answer the question. WTF is it about the short-field gear that tires can't roll over it…or that "wide bodies" don't understand about landing beyond it? This does not appear (to your many masterless Ronin followers) to be "rocket science".

I don't think rolling tires have a problem with short-field gear. I think the problem is when a tire non-rotating (or for that matter one that is still catching up to the aircraft's ground speed at touchdown) touches the gear, tripping it just enough to knock it out of battery. Sitting at the hold short, I can't think of a time I've seen it knocked out when the "larger" aircraft land far enough before the gear for the tire speed to catch up . I have however seen many an aircraft large and small knock it out when landing right on it.

 

[Recovering LSO]

A couple of thoughts/observations after having flown around NUW for 12 consecutive years:

1. Most P-3 guys aren't doing it on purpose - you're not that good

2. The closure (or dramatic decrease in use) of OLF Coupeville is hurting P-3 guys as much as B/G guys. Use your reporting tools (ASAP) to document the problem.

3. Bouncing at NUW is not our preference, but we don't have a choice anymore. Do P-3 guys have a choice? MWH is a fantastic runway with very little volume and you can back taxi up and down the runways all day long.

4. This has nothing to do with the gear - just an observation. PLEASE call for the option if you don't know if you're going to stop or not. When you call for a full stop, I'll set my interval off that call. When you take it around "for training", all you've done is stretch the pattern out, further. If you are going to do a roll and go - again, please call for the option. Other people are making decisions in their cockpits off of your calls. See #3 WRT MWH.

5. When the wind is calm at NUW the duty runway's gear SHOULD be derigged. This is often not the case though. There is new gear installed at NUW, and it is supposed to be retractable into the runway - push a button and it springs up for use. This should help.

6. B/G are required to schedule FCLPs with Base Ops. It may prove helpful for the VP squadron to organize themselves to the point of coordinating pilot trainer sorties. If you can schedule an hour when there are four or five of you chasing each other around the pattern, then the rest of the NUW users can see that on the base ops schedule and work around it - just like we already do with our own FCLPs.

7. It's frustrating sure, but I truly believe most guys aren't doing it on purpose. What makes it absolutely maddening is how BAD the NUW tower and ground controllers are. They are marginal (at best) when there aren't any curve balls thrown their way. When something goes awry they absolutely SUCK. If I'm at the hold short trying to make it to the ROOS MOA (which a a long damned way away), and a P-3 knocks the gear out of battery, it shouldn't take an act of Congress for me to turn around, taxi to the other runway and depart from there. We all know that is going to be quicker than waiting for the civilian contracts to come out fix the gear.

 

[Gatordev]

4. This has nothing to do with the gear - just an observation. PLEASE call for the option if you don't know if you're going to stop or not. When you call for a full stop, I'll set my interval off that call. When you take it around "for training", all you've done is stretch the pattern out, further. If you are going to do a roll and go - again, please call for the option. Other people are making decisions in their cockpits off of your calls.

After a tour at Kbay and then operating with P-3s at Jax, the above is my single biggest complain when at an airfield with P-3s. Does it occasionally happen with other aircraft (including helos)? Sure, but it seems like this issue is more prevalent for VP dudes (like extending your downwind at KBay all the way to Kaneohe with someone behind you). Adding onto that having to deal with VP-30 and the general reduced ability of those at the controls makes it even more frustrating (but at the end of the day, understandable).

I like to poke at the P-3 guys all the time, some of it just for fun (I said "some"). But the perceived lack of awareness of other aircraft, often times who are tight on gas, is usually what makes me go on P-3 rants.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Just so we're clear - I did not come out of my posting hiatus to shit on P-3 guys. Just thought I could add something constructive to the topic at hand.
VP dudes, fire away.

 

[xj220]

A couple of thoughts/observations after having flown around NUW for 12 consecutive years:

1. Most P-3 guys aren't doing it on purpose - you're not that good

2. The closure (or dramatic decrease in use) of OLF Coupeville is hurting P-3 guys as much as B/G guys. Use your reporting tools (ASAP) to document the problem.

3. Bouncing at NUW is not our preference, but we don't have a choice anymore. Do P-3 guys have a choice? MWH is a fantastic runway with very little volume and you can back taxi up and down the runways all day long.

4. This has nothing to do with the gear - just an observation. PLEASE call for the option if you don't know if you're going to stop or not. When you call for a full stop, I'll set my interval off that call. When you take it around "for training", all you've done is stretch the pattern out, further. If you are going to do a roll and go - again, please call for the option. Other people are making decisions in their cockpits off of your calls. See #3 WRT MWH.

5. When the wind is calm at NUW the duty runway's gear SHOULD be derigged. This is often not the case though. There is new gear installed at NUW, and it is supposed to be retractable into the runway - push a button and it springs up for use. This should help.

6. B/G are required to schedule FCLPs with Base Ops. It may prove helpful for the VP squadron to organize themselves to the point of coordinating pilot trainer sorties. If you can schedule an hour when there are four or five of you chasing each other around the pattern, then the rest of the NUW users can see that on the base ops schedule and work around it - just like we already do with our own FCLPs.

7. It's frustrating sure, but I truly believe most guys aren't doing it on purpose. What makes it absolutely maddening is how BAD the NUW tower and ground controllers are. They are marginal (at best) when there aren't any curve balls thrown their way. When something goes awry they absolutely SUCK. If I'm at the hold short trying to make it to the ROOS MOA (which a a long damned way away), and a P-3 knocks the gear out of battery, it shouldn't take an act of Congress for me to turn around, taxi to the other runway and depart from there. We all know that is going to be quicker than waiting for the civilian contracts to come out fix the gear.

I actually do have work to do but I'm delaying as much as possible. That being said I'd generally agree with what you have to say but here are my thoughts:

1. Ha, we don't do it on purpose because it affects us, too but if I want to knock it out of battery I can do it

2. YES. Completely agree.

3. We understand that, too and usually we head out to do work, but sometimes we'll have a packed flight and a transit takes up time. With limited availabiliy and the fact that the aircraft are very prone to breaking, you try and get done as much as you can locally.

4. Yeah, I don't know why people aren't doing this. As an instructor I know exactly whats next and what my intentions are with the student. That being said, having a student do student things can rapidly change the situation. Still, the option should be asked for unless you're strictly bouncing.

5. Glad to hear they're getting new gear with that ability.

6. We scheduled our flights around FCLPs and always checked with Base Ops prior to going to ensure we wouldn't interfere, but again with ever breaking aircraft we can be delayed by quite a bit and I've had several situations where jets conduct FCLPs outside of their scheduled hours.

7. You know, I thought that, too about ATC until I came to Pax...

Overall, you're right, no one is doing what we do on purpose and we're all fighting to get what training we can with limited hours/aircraft availability. We're all doing the best with a shitty situation that won't get any better. Still, we're Navy pilots flying different platforms, how can we not give each other shit.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Still, we're Navy pilots flying different platforms, how can we not give each other shit.

True, but there are lots of sensitive feelings and a lot of thin skin around here - didn't want to derail the thread into a platform food fight.

 

[xj220]

sensitive feelings and a lot of thin skin

Not my problem. You don't seem like that type though and I'm not going to stop trash talking either. I don't think this is going to derail into a shitting on each other thread; we're having a reasonable discussion. Unless you jet guys start getting into a hissy fit.

 

[Gatordev]

Just so we're clear - I did not come out of my posting hiatus to shit on P-3 guys. Just thought I could add something constructive to the topic at hand.
VP dudes, fire away.

No, no. That was me. As I've said before, I've made a career of poking fun.

 

[robav8r]

Just so we're clear - I did not come out of my posting hiatus to shit on P-3 guys. Just thought I could add something constructive to the topic at hand.
VP dudes, fire away.

During my time at NUW, I always thought how "easy" it should be to have Prowler & Orion bubbas discuss shit like this at the club over a beer. Rarely, if at all, did it ever happen. Despite the proximity of the two communities there, the cultural divide is stark.