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EXODUS part 2 ???
- Thread starter SynixMan
- Start date
Yeah ... someone should have clued in the Israelis ...Too funny not to post.
Judging by Israel's past actions, I don't think they really care what the world thinks. They're used to shooting first and asking questions later. I wish I knew more about the whole boarding issue, but if the Israelis took casualties and the people on board the boat were armed...they got what was coming to them. The lesson I learned on my trip to Israel is that they take security very seriously, if you try them, you're going to lose.
It would seem as if the people on these ships were trying to bait the Israelis in to acting the way they did.
^ Yeah ... I'm of the opinion that this 'EXODUS, part 2' was concocted and orchestrated by the 'Palestinians' and their enablers to steer attention AWAY from Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas and what nefarious schemes they're up to in the near-and-not-so-near term ... and of course, the left-leaning international press did just what they were expected to do -- crucify (is that O.K. to say 
) Israel.
For the record ... for any and all of their flaws ... and regardless of any U.S. political preferences ... I'll stick w/ the Israeli Jews over ANY OTHER Middle East nation ... any day, anyway ... you can take that to the bank.
) Israel.For the record ... for any and all of their flaws ... and regardless of any U.S. political preferences ... I'll stick w/ the Israeli Jews over ANY OTHER Middle East nation ... any day, anyway ... you can take that to the bank.
It would seem as if the people on these ships were trying to bait the Israelis in to acting the way they did.[/QUOTE]
BINGO, we have a winner! eas & A4s are both right. The organizers of this flotilla got just the result they hoped for: The Israelis killed a few meaningless people & the Israelis get slammed in the world press & public opinion polls. I'll side with the Israelis every time. Never forget the age-old truism: If the Arabs lay down their arms, there'll be peace in the Mideast next week/If the Israelis lay down their arms, there'll be a bloodbath until the last Jew in the Levant is dead.
BINGO, we have a winner! eas & A4s are both right. The organizers of this flotilla got just the result they hoped for: The Israelis killed a few meaningless people & the Israelis get slammed in the world press & public opinion polls. I'll side with the Israelis every time. Never forget the age-old truism: If the Arabs lay down their arms, there'll be peace in the Mideast next week/If the Israelis lay down their arms, there'll be a bloodbath until the last Jew in the Levant is dead.
The biggest thing about this that gets me is that the Israelis offered them to come into a port, have their cargo inspected, and then escorted into Gaza. If they really cared about getting humanitarian relief into Gaza, they'd play along. Instead they wanted to make a scene.
As was explained to me elsewhere, what if a bunch of Mexican boats came up to San Diego in broad daylight, presumably to smuggle drugs, didn't want to go through customs, were armed, and acting beligerent. Would that go well? Probably not.
As was explained to me elsewhere, what if a bunch of Mexican boats came up to San Diego in broad daylight, presumably to smuggle drugs, didn't want to go through customs, were armed, and acting beligerent. Would that go well? Probably not.
CWJones411
IRR
Fixed it for you.
[QUOTE=mmx1;644367]Israel is not claiming sovereignty over Gaza. It's as if we stopped boats headed to Tiajuana and demanded they dock in San Diego so we could inspect them.[/QUOTE]
Except that Israel voluntarily relinquished control of Gaza, and in return was pummeled w/ thousands of rockets after Hamas had destroyed the place. Why shouldn't they trust that there are no more rockets or other munitions on all these boats?
Except that Israel voluntarily relinquished control of Gaza, and in return was pummeled w/ thousands of rockets after Hamas had destroyed the place. Why shouldn't they trust that there are no more rockets or other munitions on all these boats?
No doubt Israel has a security interest in enforcing the blockade; but that is distinct from the claim making the rounds that Israel is merely enforcing it's borders.
The blockade would also be less objectionable if it were solely about weapons and not so capricious:
Turkey, formerly an ally of Israel, vouched for the cargo. That's the biggest development of this, that Israel-Turkey relations are tanking. They are rumored to be sending a naval escort for the next convoy. That'll get.....interesting.
The blockade would also be less objectionable if it were solely about weapons and not so capricious:
Turkey, formerly an ally of Israel, vouched for the cargo. That's the biggest development of this, that Israel-Turkey relations are tanking. They are rumored to be sending a naval escort for the next convoy. That'll get.....interesting.
Hamas is in control of the Gaza Strip. Israel is at war with Hamas, and Hamas continued offensive operations against Israel. A blockade is perfectly legal.
You want to blame somebody, blame Hamas.
All they were going to do was divert, search, and release. At worst, some impact on time/fuel.
The armed resistance was also irrational. You don't resist a boarding by a nation-state inside their EEZ (haven't found news reports confirming this, but with a 200nm internationally recognized EEZ you basically have to cross Israel's to get into the Gaza Strip) with active armed resistance and NOT expect to get blown away.
You want to blame somebody, blame Hamas.
All they were going to do was divert, search, and release. At worst, some impact on time/fuel.
The armed resistance was also irrational. You don't resist a boarding by a nation-state inside their EEZ (haven't found news reports confirming this, but with a 200nm internationally recognized EEZ you basically have to cross Israel's to get into the Gaza Strip) with active armed resistance and NOT expect to get blown away.
That's not what an EEZ is for (despite what the Chinese may think). UNCLOS provides for enforcement of domestic laws in EEZ only with regard to the exploration, exploitation, and conservation of living resources. The legality of the blockade is not really in dispute, but you don't have to make up rights of seizure in EEZ's or sovereign rights (i.e. border control) to a territory Israel asserts it no longer occupies to defend that claim.
What's at stake here is not the legality of the blockade but how far Israel is willing to go to enforce it. It was completely rational to resist - the convoy wanted to see and document how far Israel would escalate. The legality of the blockade doesn't resolve the subjective question of the level of force appropriate to enforce it. Despite the rhetoric about Israelis not caring about public opinion (external or internal), they clearly did not want to kill people to stop a convoy of food, medicine, and construction materials - hence why they went in with non-lethal means. Yet they let themselves get goaded into a very bad position, compounded by their own tactical mishandling of the situation.
What's at stake here is not the legality of the blockade but how far Israel is willing to go to enforce it. It was completely rational to resist - the convoy wanted to see and document how far Israel would escalate. The legality of the blockade doesn't resolve the subjective question of the level of force appropriate to enforce it. Despite the rhetoric about Israelis not caring about public opinion (external or internal), they clearly did not want to kill people to stop a convoy of food, medicine, and construction materials - hence why they went in with non-lethal means. Yet they let themselves get goaded into a very bad position, compounded by their own tactical mishandling of the situation.
You can nit-pick & bullshit 'details' and the minutia of the horror show that is the Middle East until the cows come home ....
But here's the deal: Israel wants a piece of land to live in after nearly being exterminated in Europe during the Holocaust ... the Arabs, who have all the land in the world from a comparative standpoint, cannot stand it and have been violently against Israel ever since the founding of the Jewish state. The Arabs want to drive the Jews into the sea ... they won't leave the Jews alone.
And apparently, because of our historical support for the modern state of Israel, they won't leave us alone, either. The Palestinian 'problem' is a creation of the surrounding Arab states -- it serves their purposes. Theory & intellectual exercises are fine, but at the end of the road, the question is always the same:
At some point in time -- you've got to decide which side you're on ... I made that decision a long, long time ago. I'm w/ the Jews & the state of Israel.
But here's the deal: Israel wants a piece of land to live in after nearly being exterminated in Europe during the Holocaust ... the Arabs, who have all the land in the world from a comparative standpoint, cannot stand it and have been violently against Israel ever since the founding of the Jewish state. The Arabs want to drive the Jews into the sea ... they won't leave the Jews alone.
And apparently, because of our historical support for the modern state of Israel, they won't leave us alone, either. The Palestinian 'problem' is a creation of the surrounding Arab states -- it serves their purposes. Theory & intellectual exercises are fine, but at the end of the road, the question is always the same:
At some point in time -- you've got to decide which side you're on ... I made that decision a long, long time ago. I'm w/ the Jews & the state of Israel.
So what exactly is your point?
I wasn't arguing the legalities of the use of the EEZ, I'm saying that reasonable mariners (such as bona fide merchantmen) conducting lawful behavior do not respond to boardings the way the "activists" did in a host nation's EEZ. It's a good way to get shot or hurt.
The boarding team properly identified themselves and the capacity they were functioning in. If the USCG intercepts a suspected drug boat, even the drug runners know better than to act that way.
The USN also conducts E-MIO, similar in terms of driving principles to the Israeli blockade, which can actually be conducted in international waters. Do you oppose that as well?
Finally, tactical mishandling is a nice way of armchair quarterbacking. They didn't want to KILL because they had no justification to do so going in. So they went in with non lethal force (appropriate level of force), and escalated in response to a deadly force threat (knives, baseball bats, getting thrown off the vessel, metal pipes). I can't think of any competent military organization that would not have responded with lethal force at that point.
I really don't understand the "outrage" at what Israel did. And I thought Netanyahu's speech today was an excellent plea for sanity, which unfortunately, I doubt they'll get.
IMHO, prior to June 1967 Israel was generally admired by Europe & the "sophisticated" world for their rapid establishment of a successful Jewish state. Then came the Six Day War wherein they kicked the ass of the combined armies & air forces of Egypt, Syria & Jordan w/ a brillant proactive (remember how the elites hate that word) response to their planned invasions of Israel. Ever since, Israel hasn't been considered cool in sophisticated cirlcles around Europe & major American MSA's. What's worse, we now have a "hip" American president, and he doesn't seem to like Israel too much, either. Just my $0.02.