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Europe under extreme duress

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Serious question for the group: what do you think the future holds for manned, surface (CSG) & airborne (All platforms) in the context of a conflict with the PRC in a Taiwan scenario? Lots of arguments and support for space-based, unmanned (air & surface) assets, and Cyber platforms. But do we really think that manned platforms going forward are worth the risk?
I imagine a sufficient answer rests on the broader strategy at the time. To be clear, I’m not remotely close to being “read in” on any of this so the following is all arm-chair admiraling. To beat China (with respect to Taiwan) we don’t really have to attack China directly, we just have to contain her ability to move too far. In this case Taiwan is flanked by Japan to the north and the Philippines to the south with connecting points to Korea and choke-points at the Celebes and Java (starting to sound familiar?). In this case China can seize Taiwan, but they can’t secure it so an effective U.S. and allied strategy would secure those connecting gaps with manned vessels (surface and air) and flood the interior with unmanned and/or quick strike manned efforts and augmented with free ranging attack boats). The Marines strategy of seizing key islands and using their own anti-ship missiles, long-range rockets and air defense weapons should easily turn nearby seas, and skies, into deeper choke points that can be changed or expanded (assuming improved weapon systems). This effort can be readily supported by new AFSOC aircraft programs.

Contained thus, the PLAN becomes something like the German Imperial Navy in WWI, capable and dangerous but trapped and Taiwan becomes a harder nut to crack. As for the U.S. Navy, amphibs will be important as will more submarines. We have enough carriers but more quick-to-build destroyers and frigates are needed to fill the gaps. I have no idea what is being done with unmanned, undersea systems but I imagine that some bright minds are working very hard there and that kind of silent, long loitering system will be critical.
 

Duc'-guy25

Well-Known Member
pilot
Lawl

I don't think that the AF will be relevant in any peer or near peer conflict without some significant overhauls. The service culture has atrophied from 70 years of technological tactical air superiority.

(Not including the strategic bomber mission).

I don’t think think submarines will be relevant in any peer or near peer conflict due to 50 years of technological superiority and atrophy of not being involved in a conflict since WW2.

See how dumb that statement sounds because I know nothing about submarines.

We still field the finest tactical jets and more importantly the finest tactical aviators on the face of the planet. While all the services struggle with readiness to some degree, our devotion to professionalism and getting repetitions in challenging scenarios sets us apart. The USAF is leaps and bounds better than our next rival, are arguable far more tactically proficient than its Naval Aviation counterparts when it comes to the high end fight. Your statement is ludicrous.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I don’t think think submarines will be relevant in any peer or near peer conflict due to 50 years of technological superiority and atrophy of not being involved in a conflict since WW2.

See how dumb that statement sounds because I know nothing about submarines.

We still field the finest tactical jets and more importantly the finest tactical aviators on the face of the planet. While all the services struggle with readiness to some degree, our devotion to professionalism and getting repetitions in challenging scenarios sets us apart. The USAF is leaps and bounds better than our next rival, are arguable far more tactically proficient than its Naval Aviation counterparts when it comes to the high end fight. Your statement is ludicrous.
I like how you think my comment has anything to do with the relative technical strengths / weaknesses and tactics of TACAIR and not this simple fact:

A near-peer competitor also has cruise missiles that can hit a pitcher's mound in a ballpark from 1,000-1,500 miles away, which equals or exceeds the combat radius of modern fighters. And while I'm skeptical of cruise missiles' ability to hit moving targets with countermeasures that can change course and speed like carriers and destroyers at that range, stationary targets like airfields are proven to be dead ducks. By the time the AF can conduct operations in theater against a peer enemy, they'll be conducting mop-up operations.

I will also point out that the role of the AF has changed significantly with every major US conflict based on the nature and capability of the enemy.

As for the submarine issue... well, you're not far off...
 

Random8145

Registered User
The USAF is leaps and bounds better than our next rival, are arguable far more tactically proficient than its Naval Aviation counterparts when it comes to the high end fight.
Just curious, but what do you mean by this? Wouldn't Naval aviators be as tactically proficient as Air Force aviators? Like aren't the Navy aviators sort of like the "air force" for the protection of the fleet? So in terms of tactics, just as proficient as the Air Force? My understanding is where the Air Force is different is that it is also for the strategic levels, like strategic bombing of the enemy and attacking the enemy's main air forces and so forth...?
 

Random8145

Registered User
On the issue of people saying tanks are obsolete due to how Russian tanks have performed in Ukraine, I do not understand this. The Russians have utilized their tanks in a horrible manner. It isn't any secret that tanks are highly vulnerable to enemy firepower if not used right. That goes all the way back to WWII. Tanks and infantry are like an infantryman and a rifle, i.e. the one is fairly useless without the other. Tanks and infantry must work in combination, and then with the other arms like artillery, air power, reconnaissance, etc...as such, tanks used properly as part of a combined-arms force I'd think are still very useful. There is something extremely handy about having a big armored vehicle moving with you with a giant cannon on it that can blast the enemy.
 

Random8145

Registered User
On the issue of unmanned vehicles, one thing to also keep in mind is the ability of the enemy to hack and/or jam the signal to your vehicles, and this will change as the technology advances. Unmanned F-22s are no good if the enemy can block you from controlling them.
 

Random8145

Registered User
My previous post was meant to be historical, not humorous. As the initial Russian lightning strategy didn’t work and logistical plans proved unworkable, they are mobilizing for traditional Russian attrition warfare. Year 2 could be substantially different.
Do they have the manpower to maintain this though? They are pulling in old men and prisoners now.
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Critical point: We haven't fielded the longest A/A sticks in quite some time, which significantly mitigates any perceived advantage in the quality of our jets or aviators. F-22s are great, right up to the point where the adversary is timing out shots 50 NM before our jets reach RMax
Our longest A/A sticks were dictated by what could fit on the wingtips of an F-16, and put in stone by the internal weapons bays of F-22s and F-35s.......quite the quandary.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Our longest A/A sticks were dictated by what could fit on the wingtips of an F-16, and put in stone by the internal weapons bays of F-22s and F-35s.......quite the quandary.
Well, since a 120 can't fit on the wingtips of an F-16, I think you may want to reevaluate your assumptions on that claim.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Well, since a 120 can't fit on the wingtips of an F-16, I think you may want to reevaluate your assumptions on that claim.
Huh?? Brett, you are knowledgeable in a number of areas, but in this case, I’m afraid you’re incorrect. Lest you impugn the source I have linked below, I have seen this first hand, operating alongside F-16s during joint exercises. This was just the handiest picture I found on the internet. There are plenty more.

 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Huh?? Brett, you are knowledgeable in a number of areas, but in this case, I’m afraid you’re incorrect. Lest you impugn the source I have linked below, I have seen this first hand, operating alongside F-16s during joint exercises. This was just the handiest picture I found on the internet. There are plenty more.

It would seem so. Don't think I've ever seen that config. I stand corrected.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
It would seem so. Don't think I've ever seen that config. I stand corrected.
Of note, I have posted that article for photographs only. The Drive is not exactly a technical journal- details regarding configuration and flutter characteristics should be taken with a grain of salt.
 

WhiskeySierra6

Well-Known Member
pilot
Huh?? Brett, you are knowledgeable in a number of areas, but in this case, I’m afraid you’re incorrect. Lest you impugn the source I have linked below, I have seen this first hand, operating alongside F-16s during joint exercises. This was just the handiest picture I found on the internet. There are plenty more.

Same. Can confirm. It's actually their preferred configuration.
 

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Huh?? Brett, you are knowledgeable in a number of areas, but in this case, I’m afraid you’re incorrect. Lest you impugn the source I have linked below, I have seen this first hand, operating alongside F-16s during joint exercises. This was just the handiest picture I found on the internet. There are plenty more.

What type of missile is mounted farthest inboard? I don't recognize it. Not the Sidewinder, not the AMRAAM..
 
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