Europe under extreme duress

[Beans]

UKIP is based upon stopping massive immigration and anti-globalization/loss of sovereignty. Trump's main points are the same. Even though the polls in the UK said it would be close but not pass - and all of the elites were lined up against it, working class voters came out in unprecedented numbers to prove the pundits wrong. Sound familiar?

Certainly, although Trump led in many polls prior to his victories. So do we share the conclusion that Trump supported an action by a foreign government that is contrary to what is in the Unites States' best interests? If so, and regardless of why he did it (shared ideology), what does that mean for the candidate? Or, did he actually think Brexit is good for the US? If so, why?

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

All true, but it isn't like they are starting from scratch. Clearly messy and painful for some, but Yugoslavia and the Czechs survived disoloving their countries.

I find it hard to believe dollar for dollar the UK made money from the EU. Yes, they paid plenty to the EU, and got a lot back. But it was more like a money laundering scheme. They sent money to the EU and unelected bureaucrats decided how it would be spent in the UK, and other places. The entire EU is undemocratic. There are benefits for some, but it is at the expense of independence and self determination.

From what I've been reading, that is missing the larger benefit of belonging to the EU. Sure, the UK probably sends more money to Brussels than it receives in return (since the bureaucracy costs money to run, after all), but it's an overall net positive because of accress to the common market as well as the jointly negotiated trade agreements between the EU and other countries.

So, the money that Britain is now "saving" by leaving the EU isn't real because the UK will now need to spend more money negotiating and maintaining it's own trade agreements and having to pay higher tariffs to export its goods to foreign markets. Additionally, the UK faces the threat of a huge exodus of the financial services sector to neighboring EU countries if the UK and EU cannot agree on a free/lost-cost way to continue to exchange those services.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Certainly, although Trump led in many polls prior to his victories. So do we share the conclusion that Trump supported an action by a foreign government that is contrary to what is in the Unites States' best interests? If so, and regardless of why he did it (shared ideology), what does that mean for the candidate? Or, did he actually think Brexit is good for the US? If so, why?

Why is a British exit from the EU bad for us? I'm not an expert, but it seems like you're making it more of a sure thing than it is.

 

[jmcquate]

The initial idea of a unified Europe was an economically coupled continent that would not go to war after two World Wars. It was a great idea and it worked. But then, the un-elected, un-accountable bureaucrats in Brussels want to impose political dictates to the members............it is that simple..........and this will get worse........or better.

 

[Beans]

Why is a British exit from the EU bad for us? I'm not an expert, but it seems like you're making it more of a sure thing than it is.

Not an expert either, but it seems to be an expert consensus.

 

[Randy Daytona]

If there is an EU left for the Scots to join. The whole thing may fall apart.

All of Europe may fall apart, hence the title of the thread. France has a greater percentage dissatisfied with the EU, The Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Hungary are all reaching a boiling point. People are angry - and Merkel's open door may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit

 

[Flash]

Why is a British exit from the EU bad for us? I'm not an expert, but it seems like you're making it more of a sure thing than it is.

It has already undermined the the current European alliance structure and could lasting damage to it than just the UK extiting the EU. A weakened and divided Europe doesn't really help us with Russia, the Middle East and other problems we face. If they have to spend more money to exit the EU, to make up for increased trade barriers and other stuff, that means less money for the military of one of closest allies.

So yeah, it could hurt us too.

 

[Flash]

All true, but it isn't like they are starting from scratch. Clearly messy and painful for some, but Yugoslavia and the Czechs survived disoloving their countries..

Yugoslavia, great example! Neither one was as integrated into Europe and didn't have a huge economy at stake as the UK so not even a close comparison on either count.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Certainly, although Trump led in many polls prior to his victories. So do we share the conclusion that Trump supported an action by a foreign government that is contrary to what is in the Unites States' best interests? If so, and regardless of why he did it (shared ideology), what does that mean for the candidate? Or, did he actually think Brexit is good for the US? If so, why?

Maybe I missed it, but I did not see Trump interjecting himself into domestic British politics before the vote. I did see the President tell the Brits to vote to stay in and there would be consequences if they voted to leave the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

Barack Obama has warned that the UK would be at the “back of the queue” in any trade deal with the US if the country chose to leave the EU, as he made an emotional plea to Britons to vote for staying in...The US president used a keenly awaited press conference with David Cameron, held at the Foreign Office, to explain why he had the “temerity to weigh in” over the high-stakes British question in an intervention that delighted remain campaigners.

 

[Flash]

Maybe I missed it, but I did not see Trump interjecting himself into domestic British politics before the vote. I did see the President tell the Brits to vote to stay in and there would be consequences if they voted to leave the EU.

Maybe you weren't paying attention but Trump several times said that he thought that the UK should leave the EU.

 

[wink]

Yugoslavia, great example! Neither one was as integrated into Europe and didn't have a huge economy at stake as the UK so not even a close comparison on either count.

The analogy is not about Yugoslavia's level of integration into Europe. It is the various demographic groups, religions and cultures cobbled together that made up Yugoslavia in a non-democratic country. They broke up into countries with more self determination. Same for the Czechs and even more successful.

 

[Flash]

The analogy is not about Yugoslavia's level of integration into Europe. It is the various demographic groups, religions and cultures cobbled together that made up Yugoslavia in a non-democratic country. They broke up into countries with more self determination. Same for the Czechs and even more successful.

I still can't wrap my head around how you could compare the UK leaving the EU and the breakup of Yugoslavia. Of course all of the countries you mentioned are in the EU or trying to get in so....

 

[wink]

All true, but it isn't like they are starting from scratch. Clearly messy and painful for some, but Yugoslavia and the Czechs survived disoloving their countries.

Try this then. It will be messy and painful for some. It was for the Czechs and
Yugoslavia. Same for the UK, no? The Czechs and Yugos dissolved sovereign countries. New treaties, military, economies, etc, and they survived, arguably better. The U.K. Is leaving a federation of nations that will require some of the same. Do you think the UK will not survive? How does the fact former Czech and Yugo countries, hugely different than the UK, are NOW in the EU or wish to be figure in this analogy?

 

[Brett327]

All of Europe may fall apart

Oh, FFS. We're changing your user name to Chicken Little.

 

[Flash]

Try this then. It will be messy and painful for some. It was for the Czechs and Yugoslavia. Same for the UK, no? The Czechs and Yugos dissolved sovereign countries. New treaties, military, economies, etc, and they survived, arguably better. The U.K. Is leaving a federation of nations that will require some of the same. Do you think the UK will not survive? How does the fact former Czech and Yugo countries, hugely different than the UK, are NOW in the EU or wish to be figure in this analogy?

Still not even coming close, as summarized by your own post.