Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

[64gunpilot]

That's interesting!

The Air Force did away with their Warrant Pilots in the early 80s. The Army has Warrants in name only, as they are no longer appointed by Warrant but Commissioned, and are Aviation Branch Officers as well (Warrant Officer as a Corps/Branch was done away with). The Army Warrant Officer has basically evolved into a Commissioned, Aviation Branch Flight Officer who is not in the "Leadership Track". Which means that CW4s who are Field Grade Officers equivalent to a Major may find themselves in a duty position taking orders from a Lieutenant. I personally feel that there is no real need for a Warrant Officer in today's Military Aviation except as a way to field Pilots at a cheaper cost. And I am one.

 

[64gunpilot]

LMAO! I agree with the money part...

but the whole socio-economic class thing??? Puhlease! I personally know a lot of Generals who were privates once. I know former Full-Bird Colonels who are filling Warrant Billets because they love to fly. It's not about nobles and serfs! It's about doing what you love. In the Army, Flight duties come first for the Warrants, second for the "Commissioned"/Leadership Tracked guys (We're all Commisioned/Branched now).

I think that's the whole point though - it's not a screw job. The whole point is to get people to do the same job for less dollars and educational resources.

You are taking people that may not neccessarily be right for commissioned service - yet are aeronautically adaptable and can be trainined to fly an aircraft and be excellent pilots. (Kinda like monkeys, right?)


The real dollar value - which is what testing the waters in this project is all about - is in reducing commissioned end strength. Commisioned personnel are very expensive over a career in terms of accession, training, retention and then leaving the service either through retirement or whatever.

Again it's all about the dollars. Are they doing the same job? Kind of - definetly in flying bt not in big picture career path.

Military service is not about pay. You are paid so you can live in the appropriate socio-economic class/status commensurate with your responsibilities. You are not "paid" to do a job.

 

[64gunpilot]

you're hilarious, and sad at the same time - lol

We all put on our pants the same way, some of us have just taken different paths to serving our country. I have a Masters Degree, and worked in the corporate world during my 9 year break in service making 3 times what I make now. I laugh when some "Commissioned" guy patronizes me, or his wife thinks my wife shouldn't be allowed to live in her building in a foreign country because her husband is a higher rank. What a crock! I prefer to think of what Pat Tillman did. Pro Football player, educated, coulda done the Elvis thing and toured around the combat zone bringing good PR to the Service. Could have been an Officer, CHOSE to be a grunt, a Ranger. He didn't look down on the privates, he became one. I wonder how many Officers looked down on that choice. One thing I've learned in my service, ya never know what the guy sitting next to you has done, accomplished or experienced. I know a Warrant who was a Full Bird Colonel, Brigade Commander and Army Astronaut. Now he's having a great time as a CW2 in the Reserves doing what he loves doing -Flying! If you find yourself in combat, you're not gonna give a RAT$$ A$$ about the socio-economic status, race, religion, or creed of the dude in the other seat, or sitting across from you in the ward room. All you'r gonna care about is whether he/she can fight that aircraft, and whether he/she can do their job. I guarentee that's all the Marines on the ground will care about. My buddy received the DFC in Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan. He's a Warrant who put his Apache between our Rangers (dropped off in a kill box) and the Taliban who had the high ground. He was hit by RPGs 4 times, front seater took rounds though the hip and jaw (Also a Warrant), and all four rotor blades were thrown away when they got back due to the over one-hundred bullet holes (Thank God for composites!). When that Lieutenant Colonel came up and hugged him with tears in his eyes, and thanked him for saving his men, he didn't come across like my buddy was a second class citizen.

 

[Brett327]

All I am saying is that the current CWO/LDO school is set up for a different set of guys than would be going through the CWO flight program and maybe the new guys could benefit from a more thorough officer training program given their relative lack of experience.

I'm going to have to disagree, Flash (shocking, I know). OCS is designed to transform guys off the street into officers, and even though I went through as an E-6 and 8+ years of service, square-one boot camp is its main function. I wont pretend to know exactly what criteria the board will use to select candidates, but I would argue that the hypothetical junior E-5 you refer to will be at a considerable disadvantage given the competition. All I'm saying is that the likelihood of a wet behind the ears E-5 is improbable. Having said that, the "Knife & Fork" school that has been used to train the LDO/CWO community has been adequate to this point. If you buy my assumption, then there will functionally be no difference between the flight program LDO/CWOs and the non-flight LDO/CWOs. If we can agree that the current system turns out good officers, why make changes for what will essentially be the same group of people.

Brett

 

[Flash]

I'm going to have to disagree, Flash (shocking, I know).

Brett

From the message:

HARD-CHARGING SAILORS (E-5 THROUGH E-7)

A. MUST BE COMMISSIONED BY 27TH BIRTHDAY.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Rank should hav eno place in the cockpit but it sometimes creeps in there. I have personally like having the current Navy system were you rank generally corresponds to your experience. I think there are going to be some ORM issues when a CWO3 A/C is flying with an O-4 MC and an O-4 2P. Just some food for thought.......

 

[Scamahmrd]

To the comment on the knife and fork school that the WOs will go through, it's probably more training than many NROTC grads recieve. With the quality sailors that will be accepted into this program, I don't think that there will be a discipline problem, PT problem, or any problem at all with making these sailors Warrants. On the other hand, it's my belief that the Navy should begin making all potential officers go through OCS, but that's another topic.

 

[lowflier03]

Maybe they will be there to man the slots filled by pilots who decide civilian jobs are better than an IA tour? Sounds like 2 "iffy" programs are being run at once here.

 

[ChuckMK23]

but the whole socio-economic class thing??? Puhlease! I personally know a lot of Generals who were privates once. I know former Full-Bird Colonels who are filling Warrant Billets because they love to fly. It's not about nobles and serfs! It's about doing what you love. In the Army, Flight duties come first for the Warrants, second for the "Commissioned"/Leadership Tracked guys (We're all Commisioned/Branched now).

Sorry didn't mean it the way you interpretted it. It's not about people being better than anyone else - but it is the criteria for pay though - retention I agree is another matter. But I do remember a Navy two star (aviator - A-6 type I believe) giving a talk my senior year as an about to be commissioned NROTC mid - and he really emphasized the point about as officers we were never paid to do the job, but that the motivator for accomplishment was the oath and duty were were about to be sworn to - and that your paycheck was there so "you can live in a manner commensurate to your responsabilities and authority".

 

[Brett327]

From the message:

HARD-CHARGING SAILORS (E-5 THROUGH E-7)

A. MUST BE COMMISSIONED BY 27TH BIRTHDAY.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Rank should hav eno place in the cockpit but it sometimes creeps in there. I have personally like having the current Navy system were you rank generally corresponds to your experience. I think there are going to be some ORM issues when a CWO3 A/C is flying with an O-4 MC and an O-4 2P. Just some food for thought.......

Once again, I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The same "commissioned by 27" rule applied to me and I was a senior E-6 by 26 when I went to OCS - moot point there. Second, one's rank will correspond to your experience - your flight experience. Nobody factored in my previous fleet experience in the cockpit (nor should they have). What's the difference between a brand new JG as A/C in a Prowler sitting next to a much more senior MC ECMO and a the scenario you describe? It's not much different in the VP environment. Anyone is going to have to be around and show a certain degree of experience and competence before they get their PPC ticket. Bottom line here is that people of varying ranks fly with each other every day and it's not a problem. How would your scenario be any different? Your hypothetical CWO3 PPC would have the same experience in the aircraft as the corresponding mid-level LT would today.

Brett

 

[Gatordev]

Maybe they will be there to man the slots filled by pilots who decide civilian jobs are better than an IA tour? Sounds like 2 "iffy" programs are being run at once here.

The problem w/ that logic is that the new flying warrant CAN'T replace the pilot who bails on the IA tour because the new flying warrant doesn't have the experience/quals, at least not for a while. It's hard to keep the way these guys are going to be at first apart from how the Army warrants are. These guys aren't going to be any different than a new fleet JG from the RAG at first because they need to build up the experience. Yes, the same thing happens w/ the Army warrants initially, but there's a bunch more already qualed.

On top of all that, it's not like the squadron is going to be funded for more bodies just because they have warrants. There's still only going to be enough money for x number of crews and their training. This is where I see the "CWOs fly, Os have a ground job" arugment falling apart. Yes, I know the Army WOs have ground jobs as well, but that only proves my point.

 

[bobbybrock]

I don't think you can compare the current LDO/ CWO's to the guys who will be flying. The guy who is an E-7 who goes on to become a a Warrant or LDo in his prospective field is simply progressing in his CURRENT career field. He already knows all about his particular specialty. The guy going onto fly has to start all over. Plus he's doing a job that regular URL's do. Simply for that reason I think they should have to go through the same type of officer training. Yea, maybe it's a right of passage. When I went through the Army program long ago I felt like I was back at the SAE house at times. But in the end I felt like I earned the right to be there I felt that I could deal with the stress. It wasn't a perfect system but I think it helped weed out some guys and gals who just shouldn't have been flying military aircraft.

 

[A4sForever]

02/06/2006 Navy Times:



Two articles, F.Y. I..........

Winged warrants
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Navy’s not bringing back enlisted pilots, but it soon will become easier for former enlisted sailors to fly in the fleet.[/FONT]

Congress once had quota for enlisted fliers
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Having enlisted sailors serve as pilots is not a new idea. The tradition dates to the start of naval aviation[/FONT]

 

[Brett327]

02/06/2006 Navy Times:

Two articles, F.Y. I..........

Winged warrants
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Navy’s not bringing back enlisted pilots, but it soon will become easier for former enlisted sailors to fly in the fleet.[/FONT]

Congress once had quota for enlisted fliers
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Having enlisted sailors serve as pilots is not a new idea. The tradition dates to the start of naval aviation[/FONT]

I'll give you one guess how the mainstream media is going to interpret this.

Brett

 

[Ex Rigger]

What I don't understand about this program is......if they continue with this then it seems like line officers are going to become second class citizens to the WO's in the squadrons due to them having so many hours. That seems to be the problem in the Army according to bobbybrock.

 

[bobbybrock]

I think that if the navy is able to keep URL's in the cockpit then it won't become a problem. If the Sqaudron make up starts to look like an army unit about 20 Warrant pilots to about 3 regular officers ( URL's) then it could be.
It would still take the Navy many years to get to that point. The thing is a Warrant is supposed to be a specialist in his or her area. So it will be hard to keep the two even when it comes to flying.
With only 30 going through in the next two year I really don't see any URL's being affected anytime soon.