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Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

A4sForever said:
Hmmmm .... I may be missing something .... let me see if I have this straight ... you purport:
  • Naval Aviators are 1st Class Citizens ... and ...
  • Naval Flight Officers are 2nd Class Citizens ... and ...
  • Warrant Officers are 3rd Class Citizens ... then ....
... where do Black Shoes fall in .... ???? :) .... Inquiring minds want to know.
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See, I expected this. But if you actually take note of what I said, I never purported Naval Aviators to be 1st Class Citizens. Read between the lines.
 
Steve Wilkins said:
See, I expected this. But if you actually take note of what I said, I never purported Naval Aviators to be 1st Class Citizens. Read between the lines.
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So can we chalk this up to my not wanting to let you down (???) .... you do know --- I'm pulling your leg. Right ??? :)
 
A4sForever said:

So can we chalk this up to my not wanting to let you down (???) .... you do know --- I'm pulling your leg. Right ??? :)
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Chalk this up? No. We're getting away from the point, which is that NFO's are 2nd class citizens....period!
 
Steve Wilkins said:
Chalk this up? No. We're getting away from the point, which is that NFO's are 2nd class citizens....period!
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O.K. ............................................................. , no humor in SWO-land tonight, is there?? Whatever you say. :sleep_125


BTW ... just to set you "straight" since you are stuck on this .... B/N's were never 2nd class in the A-6 squadrons. Different job, perhaps --- but not "2nd" class. They were comrades and shipmates. Over the years, I've found that the only people who "think" NFO's are second class are the ones who have limited/no experience with the breed.

I suggest you take a pill and lie down. You'll feel better in the morning .... I hope.
 
A4sForever said:
O.K. ............................................................. , no humor in SWO-land tonight, is there?? Whatever you say. :sleep_125


BTW ... just to set you "straight" since you are stuck on this .... B/N's were never 2nd class in the A-6 squadrons. Different job, perhaps --- but not "2nd" class. They were comrades and shipmates. Over the years, I've found that the only people who "think" NFO's are second class are the ones who have limited/no experience with the breed.

I suggest you take a pill and lie down. You'll feel better in the morning .... I hope.
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What was this thread about again?
 
Ignore him A4s, he's just a poor lost soul stuck in shoe-land with no real hope of ever breaking free.....

Besides we all know its:

NFO- first class
Pilot - second class
Everyone else - they just don't matter.
 
So do you guys out there flying in the fleet think thses guys will get a fair shake? Will they be able to become HAC's and fill other positions or will they be some type of super co-piot for life. Will they recieve the same flight [ay and such?
Like I said earlier. The regular officer in Army Aviation gets treated like dog shizat. Any of you Marine or Navy helo bubbas who have worked with the Army know what I'm talking about.
Also, does anyone know if these guys will be able to intergrate into the regualr URL pilot position if they so chose?
 
Well if the Navy is looking for Warrants to fill its airplanes I would be more than happy to jump ship and leave the Army. I am a CW2 PIC (HAC) with 1000 plus hours and combat time in Afghanistan. I am also prior Navy (AMS2) MH-53E Crewman and Gulfstream Loadmaster. I would love to come back to the Navy.
 
bobbybrock said:
So do you guys out there flying in the fleet think thses guys will get a fair shake? Will they be able to become HAC's and fill other positions or will they be some type of super co-piot for life. Will they recieve the same flight [ay and such?
Like I said earlier. The regular officer in Army Aviation gets treated like dog shizat. Any of you Marine or Navy helo bubbas who have worked with the Army know what I'm talking about.
Also, does anyone know if these guys will be able to intergrate into the regualr URL pilot position if they so chose?
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Bobby I think it is a manpower driven CNO experiment. It's a noble idea but Navy culture is very very hard to change. Career paths for commissioned aviators have been set in stone for a while and NMPC and detailers have a good sense on how to put the right people where. Warrant pilots will shake this up a bit.

The test will be if it goes beyond an intial 30 person pilot program - and then if CO's (O-5) level and Air Wing commanders really get behind the idea. Who will advocate for these guys/gals at the squadron level?

Could be a good thing. The Navy can handle it - we had enlisted pilots flying helos during Korea, "flying midshipmen" (Middies that hadn't commissioned yet had finished flight school), Flying LDO's, NAVCADS, etc. We can do this if the guys at the top really set the tone.

It will be interesting.
 
KWpilot said:
Well if the Navy is looking for Warrants to fill its airplanes I would be more than happy to jump ship and leave the Army. I am a CW2 PIC (HAC) with 1000 plus hours and combat time in Afghanistan. I am also prior Navy (AMS2) MH-53E Crewman and Gulfstream Loadmaster. I would love to come back to the Navy.
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That's awesome. You should share your story on here. Very cool.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
Bobby I think it is a manpower driven CNO experiment. It's a noble idea but Navy culture is very very hard to change. Career paths for commissioned aviators have been set in stone for a while and NMPC and detailers have a good sense on how to put the right people where. Warrant pilots will shake this up a bit.

The test will be if it goes beyond an intial 30 person pilot program - and then if CO's (O-5) level and Air Wing commanders really get behind the idea. Who will advocate for these guys/gals at the squadron level?

Could be a good thing. The Navy can handle it - we had enlisted pilots flying helos during Korea, "flying midshipmen" (Middies that hadn't commissioned yet had finished flight school), Flying LDO's, NAVCADS, etc. We can do this if the guys at the top really set the tone.

It will be interesting.
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Interesting indeed. "What if:" A percentage of those 30 folks succeed to wings, go to the squadron, and the Navy cuts the program? Where are these folks going to go?
 
And what if the program takes off and becomes a regular thing? Can I apply? I'll still be able to retire as an O-3, but I get to stay in the cockpit the whole time. ;)
 
Gotta' take a break from the football game ... phew.

The Navy has trained "other than Commissioned Officers" and designated them as "good to go" in the cockpit nearly since the inception of Navy flying. It ALWAYS seems to be based on the number of warm bodies required and the ease and expense of obtaining them.

Remember the Naval Aviation Pilots ??? Enlisted pilots ??? When the NAP program was dropped -- the "Flying Chiefs " -- enlisted men -- continued in naval aviation service until they graduated out of the cockpit and retired from the Service. There was a MCPO in base operations at Meridian --- with Naval Aviator wings of gold on his chest --- when I went through basic jet there in the '60's.

This is all speculation, but I suppose if WO's got trained and the Navy subsequently "dropped" the program --- and we know they will at some point in time --- they always do :) --- the "Flying WO's" would continue as their "Flying Chief" predecessors did, in or out of the cockpit. "Needs of the Navy" --- as always .....

The same happened with the graduates of the NAVCAD and AOCS programs ... they continued to fly and serve after their acquisition and training programs were terminated, with the obvious exception that these gents were all commissioned officers after obtaining their Wings.

Here's a link (below) in .pdf format to an interesting discussion from the Naval Aviation History Branch in D.C. about the begining of the designations of Naval Aviators and Naval Air Pilots .... don't be scared off by the title --- it's somewhat wordy.

"The History of Naval Aviator and Naval Aviation Pilot Designations and Numbers, The Training of Naval Aviators and the Number Trained (Designated)":

http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-1910/APP01.PDF
 
If the Navy cuts the program, those CWO's will continue until extinct. Back in the late 90's, our squadron was the west coast FRS for C-12's. The OIC was an ADO, last of the breed I think. Never left the cockpit in about 24 years. Had nothing but C-12 and T-39 time, over 5000 hours. I like the idea. The Navy kind of has a program for those who want to keep flying until 20 and probably remain an O-4........TAR. At least it's my understanding an officer can fly until 20. Our Air Ops on our last cruise was a flying LDO as well. Never a fleet avaitor but had 5000+ hours of T-34 and C-12 hours.
 
Seems like the navy might just intergrate these guys into the URL community if the prgram goes south. With only 30 studs getting the call thes guys will mosyt likely have some pretty imressive stats as far as test scores and education.
 
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