Warrants with wings....that's more jacked up than warrants with SWO pins (which I despise btw)
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Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit
- Thread starter HH-60H
- Start date
I'm a active duty CWO3 aviator in the Army. It will be intresting to see how this pans out. There is just so much tradition in Naval avaition. Seems like it might not be recieved well by some.
In the Army there is an us/them mantality that is very prevalent. Warrants stay in the cockpit till they are at least CWO4's. The Regular officers are in the cockpit for their first few years then again in about 6 years after serving on staff. So the aviator experience lies within the Warrant community. In my present unit we only have two Regular officers who made HAC . Before they made it we had none.
I would think an LDO type program would be better suited for the Navy. The Army has actaully looked into it lately. Or better yet, do like the Coasties and pilfer some Army guy with 3000 hrs. make him an Ensign and tell him he won't see anything past 0-4. I bet you would have guys knocking down the door.
I'm not familar wth how the Navy intergrates its Warrants. We have WOCS which is similar to OCS. It is branch imaterial. Do Navy guys ( CWO/LDO's) go to a knife and fork school or is it similar to OCS? Again it will be interesting to see what becomes of this.
In the Army there is an us/them mantality that is very prevalent. Warrants stay in the cockpit till they are at least CWO4's. The Regular officers are in the cockpit for their first few years then again in about 6 years after serving on staff. So the aviator experience lies within the Warrant community. In my present unit we only have two Regular officers who made HAC . Before they made it we had none.
I would think an LDO type program would be better suited for the Navy. The Army has actaully looked into it lately. Or better yet, do like the Coasties and pilfer some Army guy with 3000 hrs. make him an Ensign and tell him he won't see anything past 0-4. I bet you would have guys knocking down the door.
I'm not familar wth how the Navy intergrates its Warrants. We have WOCS which is similar to OCS. It is branch imaterial. Do Navy guys ( CWO/LDO's) go to a knife and fork school or is it similar to OCS? Again it will be interesting to see what becomes of this.
Steve Wilkins said:
Hard to tell sarcasm on the internet but are you serious? What makes this jacked up? I am not trying to be an @ss but if I dont get picked up for a regular OCS spot this seems like a good back up plan. There are always other service OCS programs (which I am looking into) but if I could stay in the Navy I would prefer that.
Thisguy
Pain-in-the-dick
bobbybrock said:
It's a knife and fork school. Also, in the Navy you gotta be E-7 to apply for warrant, not like the army where there's a WOCS. The message said that there is a group waiver submitted so that E-5/E-6 can apply for the warrant pilot program. It's definitely going to be weird seeing a warrant in his late 20s/early 30s in the Navy.
bobbybrock said:
I would hate to see Naval Aviation treat it's commissioned officer aviators the same way the Army does. That would be a huge disappointment. I also thinkn there is a disconnect with not including any warrant officer pilot program in the Strike/TacAir community. Creates an A and B team mentaility that Naval Aviation doesn't need.
This is yet another CNO experiment not unlike Flying LDO, NAVCAD, etc al.
I do think it will open the discussion around Joint UPT for rotary wing aviators though. Let's see how this pans out.
Steve rarely engages in sarcasm - I'd take it at face value if I were you. As for the program, I would argue that the CWO/LDO route will be much more competitive then other accession programs. You know that there are going to be a ton of eligible folks applying for just 30 slots, so while anything is possible, I'd be realistic about it being a real backup.sarnav said:
Brett
Like Brett said, I RARELY engage in sarcasm here....serious.sarnav said:
But on a super serious note, just take a deep breath, sit back and relax. My reference to Warrants walking around with wings being jacked up is not that I think this is a bad program or idea. I personally think it's great. Being "jacked up" is more about me thinking it will be weird to see warrant aviators and URL aviators working side by side.
I think if the Navy keeps a good balance then this might work out. What happened to the Army was RLO'S ( Regular Officers) got to rapped up in the Army model of being a combined arms officer. So little time is spent in the cockpit. When the army first got into the air assault/airmoble business it was the regular O's who did most of the flying. And a lot of these guys had IP duties as well as test pilot duites. Somewhere along the way they lost that role and it pretty much became the warrants job to do most of the flying.
Here is how bad it has become. When it comes to ACIP ( Aviation Career Incentive Pay) Regular Officers and Warrant get the same thing. When it come to ACP ( Aviator Contiuation Pay) only Warrant get it. In the Special Ops units it is the same but the ACP is 25,000.
So you have captains and majors who are basically being told by the army that they aren't really needed in the cockpit.
The joke in the Army Aviation is that the Warrnats have the W.O.L.F. ( Warrant Officer Liberation Front ). This is when the Warrnats make sure that the juniors Warrnats are taken care when it comes to things like flight time and taking HAC rides. Since most of the pilots in the units are Warrants, then most of the HAC are Warrants. Those that are PIC's( HAC) basically get to decide who takes a PIC ride. And when they take that ride it will be with a Warrant Officer IP because there is no such thing as a regualr Officer IP in an operational unit. See where problems might arise.
So you can see how this large rift excist between the Warrants and the regular Officers.
Here is how bad it has become. When it comes to ACIP ( Aviation Career Incentive Pay) Regular Officers and Warrant get the same thing. When it come to ACP ( Aviator Contiuation Pay) only Warrant get it. In the Special Ops units it is the same but the ACP is 25,000.
So you have captains and majors who are basically being told by the army that they aren't really needed in the cockpit.
The joke in the Army Aviation is that the Warrnats have the W.O.L.F. ( Warrant Officer Liberation Front ). This is when the Warrnats make sure that the juniors Warrnats are taken care when it comes to things like flight time and taking HAC rides. Since most of the pilots in the units are Warrants, then most of the HAC are Warrants. Those that are PIC's( HAC) basically get to decide who takes a PIC ride. And when they take that ride it will be with a Warrant Officer IP because there is no such thing as a regualr Officer IP in an operational unit. See where problems might arise.
So you can see how this large rift excist between the Warrants and the regular Officers.
Don't you mean third class citizens? I thought NFO's already held the coveted title of being second class citizens :icon_smilBrett327 said:
Steve Wilkins said:
Hmmmm .... I may be missing something .... let me see if I have this straight ... you purport:
- Naval Aviators are 1st Class Citizens ... and ...
- Naval Flight Officers are 2nd Class Citizens ... and ...
- Warrant Officers are 3rd Class Citizens ... then ....
.... Inquiring minds want to know.