Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

[Brett327]

Wow this is definitely big news. Why wasn't there any news of this prior to the message being released? At least I haven't heard of anything leading up to this.

This really isn't news and has even been discussed on this forum for the last year. This is just the MSG for the FY-06 version of the program which has been talked about in some form or another for the last several years. While this looks like the only time they've authorized slots, it's only going to be 30 people, so it's not going to have a significant impact on much of anything. It looks like it will follow the same application requirements as the regular CWO/LDO program. Needless to say, it will be extremely competitive.

Brett

 

[Thisguy]

I think what's interesting is that these applicants get cut zero slack for age. Commissioned by 27th birthday? Needless to say, these guys won't be the salty MMCO Warrant types you're used to.

 

[alwyn2nd]

The US Army started the same pilot program back in the early 50s. They only allowed E-5s and above to apply. Then they realized they were depleting their talented NCO pool and decided to train civilians as well as warrant officer aviators.

The Navy will decide through this trial program if they want to go down the same road as the Army. It appears the fighter/attack community is exempted due to the one cockpit crew position. Less officers fighting for the command billets.

 

[BigIron]

Why exclude the Strike community?

This is a good question. Anybody have any thoughts?

 

[Brett327]

This is a good question. Anybody have any thoughts?

Like Alwyn2nd implied, the P-3 community, and -60s to a lesser extent are really hurting with DH screening because of the large number of JOs in a squadron relative to other platforms. The hope is to alleviate this pressure somewhat by diluting the number of 1310/20 guys per squadron. Since TACAIR doesn't have this problem, there's no need for it in those communities.

Brett

 

[HeyJoe]

Wow this is definitely big news. Why wasn't there any news of this prior to the message being released? At least I haven't heard of anything leading up to this.

I saw it buried in a Human Capital Strategy brochure weeks ago among a bunch of other proposals and wondered why no message traffic...looks like this is it.

 

[CommodoreMid]

I not sure this will have the intended effect. You are reducing the number of JOs, but not the number of DHs (specifically mentioned in the message). DH screening is not that competative to begin with (in HSL I think the last board was around 85%), so there is little gain there. You still would have the same number of DHs competing for the #1 EP in order to screen for command.

There was a lot of discussion about this in my command this morning, but most people just decided it would have little effect on them.

ghost

Ok this is probably a stupid question, but regarding promotions, say hypothetically you have two commands, one full of shit hot DHs and another full of craptacular DHs. Since at each command only one person can get the EP, doesn't that really screw over the last ranked officer at the shit hot command when the EP at the craptacular command is worse than him? Does that make sense?

 

[Gatordev]

And such is the problem w/ FITREPS. But keep in mind that they don't just look at your DH last FITREP. For a DH screening board, you haven't made it there yet, so they go back and look at your last competitve Sea Tour FITREP and your last Shore Tour one. They'll also look for trends. On top of all that, the CO has an average as well, so they may look at that too.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I was one of the disbelievers who poo-poo'd this as plausible. I concede.

You and many a SWO. I posted this idea on Sailor Bob a bit over a year ago. Many there thought I was out of my mind.

I guess the higher ups can spot a genious at work after all.

 

[phrogdriver]

Like Alwyn2nd implied, the P-3 community, and -60s to a lesser extent are really hurting with DH screening because of the large number of JOs in a squadron relative to other platforms. The hope is to alleviate this pressure somewhat by diluting the number of 1310/20 guys per squadron. Since TACAIR doesn't have this problem, there's no need for it in those communities.

Brett

You don't think it has anything to do with an institutional bias towards fixed-wing aircraft? I think the train of thought goes along the lines of, "Well, warrants can fly helos and maritime, since that stuff isn't that hard anyway. That trapping on the boat thing definitely requires a college degree, though." Because, as we know, that class in medieval European toiletry science and those 3 semester hours of raquetball will help one get aboard safely.

 

[squeeze]

You don't think it has anything to do with an institutional bias towards fixed-wing aircraft? I think the train of thought goes along the lines of, "Well, warrants can fly helos and maritime, since that stuff isn't that hard anyway. That trapping on the boat thing definitely requires a college degree, though." Because, as we know, that class in medieval European toiletry science and those 3 semester hours of raquetball will help one get aboard safely.

Spoken like a true, bitter rotor-head (kidding)

I just wish the Marine Corps would follow the Brits lead. Split off at Capt/Maj for flying or command path. Choose flying and you'll never make it past Capt, but you'll stay in the cockpit (thus becoming very tactically proficient) or choose command and not fly as much, but you'll become the Marine Corps posterchild "MAGTF Officer."

 

[A4sForever]

.....I just wish the Marine Corps would follow the Brits lead. Split off at Capt/Maj for flying or command path. Choose flying and you'll never make it past Capt, but you'll stay in the cockpit (thus becoming very tactically proficient) ....."

The Navy considered this @ 20 years ago ... you could make O-4 and stay in the cockpit for 30 years, but that was it. The concept attracted much interest amongst the Aviator ranks, but it died in DC as the boys in the puzzle palace and "others" in the chain of command decided it was not becoming a "Naval Officer" to not aspire to command.

 

[KBayDog]

Split off at Capt/Maj for flying or command path. Choose flying and you'll never make it past Capt, but you'll stay in the cockpit (thus becoming very tactically proficient) or choose command and not fly as much, but you'll become the Marine Corps posterchild "MAGTF Officer."

The idea is intriguing (I'm sure there are plenty of great aviators out there who want nothing to do with the "MAGTF Officer" thing - they just want to fly, and they would be damn good at it). Right off the bat, though, I see two things that would prevent that coming to fruitition in "today's" Corps:

1. The idea that Marine officers should always be seeking greater responsibility, greater knowledge, more PME, etc, etc, etc. (Kind of makes you wonder why we still have LDOs.) What kind of message would a "career Captain" send to the rest of the officer corps?

2. You could potentially run into the "1stSgt/MSgt" divide (to further expand on this, I highly recommend reading "Why a Two-Track Promotion System: Is the 9999 MOS outdated" (MCG, Dec 2005)). Would we, as 1stLts, have to decide which "track" we wanted to follow? And, if so, what would happen to those who choose the "command" path (ala 1stSgt), but are turned down? Would they go the "technical" route? What would the route for the "career Captain" consist of that the "command" route not have? What would happen if a young 1stLt didn't know what route he wanted to follow? (After all, he doesn't have the 15+ years of experience most Gunnys have before they have to make that decision... Also, would the "career Captain" have to go to TBS? Or could it be a shortened TBS, like the warrant officers? In that case, would we need carrer Captains? Why not warrant officer pilots?

Not trying to be a jerk, and I apologize for the threadjack, but these things warrant (HA!) discussion at some point. (Maybe AW could "threadjack" an entire MCG issue!! )

 

[KBayDog]

...the boys in the puzzle palace and "others" in the chain of command decided it was not becoming a "Naval Officer" to not aspire to command.

What he said!

 

[Brett327]

You don't think it has anything to do with an institutional bias towards fixed-wing aircraft?

Definitely not. Like others have said, this has been a manpower/human capital program from the get go and it is likewise being directed to the communities where relief is needed. There was certainly no airframe/designator limit placed on the guys in my program (legacy STA) and none of us had degrees (or even passed the 10th grade in my case ). Some of us (gasp) flew single seat TACAIR. I understand the cynicism, but it is unwarranted in this case.

Brett