Duel or Dual Designator

[whitedevil]

Hello,

To make a long story short, my 2 life's goals are to achieve an MD and fly for the military. I've heard and met some pilots who were given the title Duel Designator. From what I know, this allows you to be a Flight Surgeon and have an MD, but you still retain your Pilot wings and allowed to fly.

One of the guys I met said that he became a Pilot first, and then the Navy paid for his medical school. This is something I'm interested in considering the costs of College these days.

I've visited a few websites, but they lack the real world information that I'm looking for here. Are any of you Duel Designators, or know someone who has this position? Any information is appreciated.

*Edited for extreme title error

 

[Brett327]

Hello,

To make a long story short, my 2 life's goals are to achieve an MD and fly for the military. I've heard and met some pilots who were given the title Duel Designator. From what I know, this allows you to be a Flight Surgeon and have an MD, but you still retain your Pilot wings and allowed to fly.

One of the guys I met said that he became a Pilot first, and then the Navy paid for his medical school. This is something I'm interested in considering the costs of College these days.

I've visited a few websites, but they lack the real world information that I'm looking for here. Are any of you Duel Designators, or know someone who has this position? Any information is appreciated.

I've known a few. Going that route is going to present significant challenges career-wise, so if you choose that route, having a successful, upwardly mobile career is going to be extremely difficult. Maybe you don't care about that, but my advice to you is pick one thing and do well at it.

Brett

 

[FMRAM]

Good luck with that.

 

[e6bflyer]

Duel designator? Do you mean like this?

 

[FMRAM]

No like this...

 

[Rugger]

If you mean "dual designator," yes they are out there. There are far more prior aviators who went to med school than physicians who became SNAs/NAs. Maybe only 2 or 3 that are actually doing it now, the last one having winged around 01. The dude I know really well got winged in Kingsville and went on to VF101, and hit the fleet as a new tomcat bubba. His call sign was "C--Nug" - for CDR Nugget. Rumor has it that there is a physiologist who reapplied for flight and got it, but I've not met that person. No SNFOs/NFO's that I know of ..

If you search the forums you'll find a handful of posts about this..

 

[Flying Low]

There is an O-4 at Whiting who is a pilot and a Doc. He is the one who rewrote the AERO class. The class went from 2 hours to 20. Anyways he did it, I'm just not sure how and some of his time was flying in the Army.

 

[BigIron]

Maybe you don't care about that, but my advice to you is pick one thing and do well at it.

Brett

This is good advice. The Navy wants you to practice medicine or be an aviator. There is no pay/command structure for you to do both at one time. Our old flight doc was an S-3 NFO who went to med school as an O3 (reverted to O1 at med school) and came back as a flight surgeon. I remember a flight doc down in Corpus who eventually went on and flew Jets. There are Navy flight surgeons who fly sometimes, but they are not aircraft or mission commanders. Their primary duties are medical.

My suggestion is to fly first, and then apply to med school.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Do what you love or what you think you would love most. I've basically seen two types of officers. There are those that are focused on their career and constantly thinking two steps ahead in future career moves. These guys sometimes love what they do, and sometimes they don't. The second type of officer focuses on doing what he/she loves. They pick job assignments based on what sounds most interesting and fun, with upward career mobility possibly being significantly impacted. The gist is, they have a lot of fun during their careers though.

In my opinion, you would probably be better served to get your wings first, fullfill your aviation obligation and then attempt to transfer over to the medical side. If that doesn't work, you can leave active duty, go to medical school, and then possibly come back in as a Navy doc. Either way, you get to fly for the military and be a doctor (whether civilian or military).

 

[Goober]

In my opinion, you would probably be better served to get your wings first, fullfill your aviation obligation and then attempt to transfer over to the medical side. If that doesn't work, you can leave active duty, go to medical school, and then possibly come back in as a Navy doc. Either way, you get to fly for the military and be a doctor (whether civilian or military).

Exactly my thought. Plus, you won't burn your years of eligibility for flight school at the expense of your time spent as a doc. There's no age limitation for going back to med school.

 

[pat]

The anesthesiologist who treated my wife during our son's birth was a prior Navy helo guy, for eight years. So yes, it's possible. Excel at one job, and if you want, pick another to excel at.

 

[wink]

There are Navy flight surgeons who fly sometimes, but they are not aircraft or mission commanders. Their primary duties are medical.

Let's be clear. He is talking about not just Flight Surgeon, but a real NA/NFO that is Natops qualified in a fleet aircraft that is also a flight surgeon. That is also different then a guy that flew in the fleet, went to MD school to become a Medical Corps Officer and gets to wear the wings he eared in a prior life. For a dual designated doc/pilot that would mean he can fly solo like any other stick monkey out there. Flight surgeons are very rarely dual designated pilots or NFOs. A flight surgeon's aviation qualifications are something completely different.

Even for the dual designated pilot/docs, they may fly fleet aircraft, but they are not and will never be full up combat crew. You will never see a MD/pilot going downtown. Regulations prohibit a physician who has taken the Hippocratic oath from serving in a position where they would have to take a life. Sure, the occasional lucky quack will get dual designation and get to turn and burn a bit during operational training or go on a cross country, but he will never fly a real mission (legally anyway). Just as an aside, the same goes for Chaplains. If you are designated a Chaplain or Medical Corps Officer your trigger puller days are over.

 

[Brett327]

Let's be clear. He is talking about not just Flight Surgeon, but a real NA/NFO that is Natops qualified in a fleet aircraft that is also a flight surgeon. That is also different then a guy that flew in the fleet, went to MD school to become a Medical Corps Officer and gets to wear the wings he eared in a prior life. For a dual designated doc/pilot that would mean he can fly solo like any other stick monkey out there. Flight surgeons are very rarely dual designated pilots or NFOs. A flight surgeon's aviation qualifications are something completely different.

Even for the dual designated pilot/docs, they may fly fleet aircraft, but they are not and will never be full up combat crew. You will never see a MD/pilot going downtown. Regulations prohibit a physician who has taken the Hippocratic oath from serving in a position where they would have to take a life. Sure, the occasional lucky quack will get dual designation and get to turn and burn a bit during operational training or go on a cross country, but he will never fly a real mission (legally anyway). Just as an aside, the same goes for Chaplains. If you are designated a Chaplain or Medical Corps Officer your trigger puller days are over.

Just out of curiosity, are these limitations on combat written into instruction (or international treaty/law) anywhere, or just a matter of tradition? I have a particular dual designated buddy who I'd love to give some grief to over this issue.

Brett

 

[schwarti]

Just to ride on what Wink was saying - the reason that doctors can't fly combat missions is the same reason that the Marines use Navy medical personnel - the Hippocratic Oath. At least, that's one reason, and the one I've heard most. I'm not sure how much that applies to regulations, but there it is.

 

[wink]

Just out of curiosity, are these limitations on combat written into instruction (or international treaty/law) anywhere, or just a matter of tradition? I have a particular dual designated buddy who I'd love to give some grief to over this issue.

Brett

I always assumed it was based in international law/treaty. However, I have seen the Navy regulation myself, although it was years ago. I would be very interested in you friend's experience. The regulation said that once you become a 210x or 410x you have to resign other designators or subspecialties that require offensive combat. You do not see docs with the FMF humping a rifle and leading Marines on combat foot patrols do you? So why is it that it would be ok for a doc to launch a couple HARMs down the throats of the enemy. If you are implying that your buddy flies operational missions, how does he square that with his oath?