Drawbacks of the Military

[airwinger]

Ahh A4's has made my point very neatly especially vis fams and nepotism.

If no one is willing to talk about it, a 2ndLt just out of TBS who knows he was really good at that grunt stuff and feels he is the ONLY one in the entire history of navy flight training to hate fams may decide to DOR, go ground and lead Marines. The 7 Lts from my OCS/TBS company had been through a winter OCC class, then the joys of quantico in the summer, they didn't quit easily yet well before FAM-13X they did just that. Maybe they thought all of flight school was like fams, my intent was hopefully to convince some stud sitting around in Whiting or corpus hoping for thunderstorms that it doesn't always suck.

Everyone knows that in this world who your parents are matters a great deal but I honestly believed that the Corps is as perfect an organization as there is out there. Nothing I'd read or heard about prepared me for anything different.

As far as racism goes, note that I say nothing of it infesting the Corps. Meridian as a city was a different issue. Knowing what I know now I would NOT take my family into Meridian or my children into the schools there. I would either be a geo bachelor or resign my commission if necessary. Yes I think the lifelong effects of putting my family in Mississippi are that severe. My opinion.

 

[Fly Navy]

When I was in Primary, it was perceived that a large amount of DORs were Marines. Why? I never understood it.

 

[airwinger]

Looking back its very easy to understand. After OCS/TBS only 10 more weeks of IOC beckoned and we would be platoon commanders with the rare privelege of commanding infantry Marines, maybe even in combat. I remember sitting in the sim building at Whiting learning to "flop, chop drop" as we watched the incredible performance of 1 MEF enroute to Bagdad and realizing that guys I knew were leading the fight.

Add that to all the brain washing that goes on in Quantico and a guy that nearly dropped his air contract will get to Whiting and decide that going ground was preferrable.

 

[Fly Navy]

Looking back its very easy to understand. After OCS/TBS only 10 more weeks of IOC beckoned and we would be platoon commanders with the rare privelege of commanding infantry Marines, maybe even in combat. I remember sitting in the sim building at Whiting learning to "flop, chop drop" as we watched the incredible performance of 1 MEF enroute to Bagdad and realizing that guys I knew were leading the fight.

Add that to all the brain washing that goes on in Quantico and a guy that nearly dropped his air contract will get to Whiting and decide that going ground was preferrable.

I can understand the motivation to go Infantry and lead Marines... even as a Navy guy it's desireable. But hell, DORing out of Primary isn't even giving it a chance (I know, there are some very good reasons to DOR, not discounting those)...

I know what you're saying, flight school isn't what people dream it is... but that's anything really...

Sometimes you just have to suffer a little to get what you want.

 

[FrankTheTank]

A-4s on the Money!

If you think it is unfair then once your MSR is up you QUIT! The airline route (Except maybe Ryan Air and Cathay Pacific) is strictly and contractually SENIORITY.. Age, race, who knows who means jack-sh1t! You bid for seat, domicile, and schedule... However, assuming you are qualified it is all about who knows who to get the interview, etc... And then should you want something other than just being a basic line guy tha again knowing people sure helps(ie.. Manager, Check Airmen, etc)... That is about as close to fair as I have ever seen! Flying is a club with it's own set of club rules... Fair---NO! But life ain't fair! :icon_cryi

 

[Huggy Bear]

Considering this is a thread about the drawbacks of naval aviation, I think you are being unfair for criticizing airwinger for his opinions. Your outlook on life all depends on your point of reference, and that changes as you grow older. I certainly have different ideas than I did when I was a newly winged JG. Things that seemed significant then would not even make me bat an eyelash now. But the passage of time also makes it easy to romanticize those early days and forget about the trials and tribulations.

 

[A4sForever]

Considering this is a thread about the drawbacks of naval aviation, I think you are being unfair for criticizing airwinger ...

Uhhhhh ... CONSIDERING ..... when someone ascribes "inconvenient truths" to a thread about what's "wrong" with the Navy --- and I don't agree or have another "take" on it based on a whole bunch of experience --- which he doesn't have (or you???) --- I'm not gonna' sit still and let it pass ----

You go ahead and do it if it makes you feel better ...

 

[Huggy Bear]

Uhhhhh ... CONSIDERING ..... when someone ascribes "inconvenient truths" to a thread about what's "wrong" with the Navy --- and I don't agree or have another "take" on it based on a whole bunch of experience --- which he doesn't have (or you???) --- I'm not gonna' sit still and let it pass ----

You go ahead and do it if it makes you feel better ...

Well, I agreed with a lot of your response, but your flight school experience from 20-40 years ago (???) doesn't invalidate his current opinions. When I was a student 2 or 3 downs was sufficient for an attrite too. At the FRS I teach in we graduated a student with 3x that many SODs. We tried to attrite and our decision was overturned by an admiral you probably went to flight school with. Again, times change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

 

[Brett327]

Considering this is a thread about the drawbacks of naval aviation, I think you are being unfair for criticizing airwinger for his opinions. Your outlook on life all depends on your point of reference, and that changes as you grow older. I certainly have different ideas than I did when I was a newly winged JG. Things that seemed significant then would not even make me bat an eyelash now. But the passage of time also makes it easy to romanticize those early days and forget about the trials and tribulations.

While we're all going down that road, it's probably not appropriate to judge Naval Aviation per se on flight school or even RAG experiences. If the fleet were like the training command, nobody would like it. Just a little perspective.

Brett

 

[airwinger]

If you think it is unfair then once your MSR is up you QUIT! The airline route (Except maybe Ryan Air and Cathay Pacific) is strictly and contractually SENIORITY.. Age, race, who knows who means jack-sh1t! You bid for seat, domicile, and schedule... However, assuming you are qualified it is all about who knows who to get the interview, etc... And then should you want something other than just being a basic line guy tha again knowing people sure helps(ie.. Manager, Check Airmen, etc)... That is about as close to fair as I have ever seen! Flying is a club with it's own set of club rules... Fair---NO! But life ain't fair! :icon_cryi

NO you don't quit and complain from the outside. Our job as leaders is to solve problems and to do that I would guess that first you need to identify them and decide whether they are indeed a problem.

This past weekend I attended a winging in Corpus and was honored to talk to the senior Marine in VT-31. He pointed out that if aviation was pefect there would be no need to offer a $25K bonus to try and keep mid grade officers. The key is figuring out what problems we can solve(say better housing or schools) and those that we can't(never deploying away from family).

 

[Steve Wilkins]

While we're all going down that road, it's probably not appropriate to judge Naval Aviation per se on flight school or even RAG experiences. If the fleet were like the training command, nobody would like it. Just a little perspective.

Brett

Ahh, but flight school and the RAG is certainly a part of Naval Aviation is it not? I think it deserves attention in a thread such as this.

 

[phrogdriver]

As far as Marine DORs--sometimes they'll get lucky and lead Marines into combat; a lot of the times they'll end up leading Marines to the supply locker at base property.

I won't smash airwinger's bag for his post, "complaining" or not. Life isn't all flowers, rainbows, and butterflies. Obviously he stuck it out through the bad spots or he wouldn't have winged. The thread is called "drawbacks of the military," after all.

Somewhere between the "bad old days" and "no SNA left behind" is the right way of doing things. I don't want "Airwarriors" to turn into an unmitigated *****fest. But, we need to tell it like it is, both to other professional aviators and to those thinking of joining. Without airing the laundry a little, nothing ever gets better and people join thinking it's all "choker whites and dining outs"/"cammie paint and M-16s."

 

[Steve Wilkins]

But, we need to tell it like it is, both to other professional aviators and to those thinking of joining. Without airing the laundry a little, nothing ever gets better and people join thinking it's all "choker whites and dining outs"/"cammie paint and M-16s."

Couldn't agree more. And this virtual community is a perfect forum for that type of discussion.

 

[FrankTheTank]

NO you don't quit and complain from the outside

I don't complain from the outside!!! For the record! I put up with the BS for 14 years and BS is BS... My point is that BS exists on the outside and it is still BS but at least I HAVE CONTROL!!! I don't stand duty, I don't get calls in the night (unless I am sitting reserve) and I am paid to be a professional pilot! It is as close to fair as I have seen! And that is my point! The more money you make the more money you spend so BONUS means jack to me! All it does is get those on the fence off the fence! :scared_12

 

[Brett327]

Ahh, but flight school and the RAG is certainly a part of Naval Aviation is it not? I think it deserves attention in a thread such as this.

Sure, but I think that the point I'm trying to get across is that Naval Aviation as a whole ought not be judged by "training environment" experiences. That would be like judging the fleet by OCS or Boot Camp - valid topics for discussion in their own right, certainly, but probably not the best examples to cite in evaluating the bigger picture.

Brett