DoD hiring freeze

[Swanee]

They’re incurred by the PPV partner… they’re responsible for everything, including water mains sewers, and power lines, to a point. That’s all done via the contract, and the companies that do PPV housing all do very nicely in the profit dept. They have to disclose their books so the govt can see that. Remember, that in addition to the terms of the contract, they’re also getting all that BAH. For PMRF, the BAH alone for just 56 housing units is about $2.6M every year.

The PPV housing neighborhoods across Hampton Roads are notorious for providing a substandard product.

 

[sevenhelmet]

They’re incurred by the PPV partner… they’re responsible for everything, including water mains sewers, and power lines, to a point. That’s all done via the contract, and the companies that do PPV housing all do very nicely in the profit dept. They have to disclose their books so the govt can see that. Remember, that in addition to the terms of the contract, they’re also getting all that BAH. For PMRF, the BAH alone for just 56 housing units is about $2.6M every year.

So the government loses all that BAH and whatever is in the terms of the contract.

Not at all trying to be difficult here, but from a 50,000’ view, I still don’t see how it’s cheaper. That’s more middlemen, more salaries, and more vested interests between the customer and the tax dollars that ultimately pay for everything. Short of PPV watering down the end product, I don’t see how the net result is a lower overall cost.

Seems wasteful to me, and it’s why I have never bought the line that privatization “saves money”. That’s all a matter of perspective, e.g. “my department isn’t paying for it.”

 

[OscarMyers]

So the government loses all that BAH and whatever is in the terms of the contract.

Not at all trying to be difficult here, but from a 50,000’ view, I still don’t see how it’s cheaper. That’s more middlemen, more salaries, and more vested interests between the customer and the tax dollars that ultimately pay for everything. Short of PPV watering down the end product, I don’t see how the net result is a lower overall cost.

Seems wasteful to me, and it’s why I have never bought the line that privatization “saves money”. That’s all a matter of perspective, e.g. “my department isn’t paying for it.”

I realized how much a scam PPV was when SoCal got like a $500 BAH increase and nothing really changed... to be fair Mugu out in town PPV housing is pretty decent and they usually fix things quickly. But at the end of the day they're still effectively rentals with the cheapest shit inside. We're on our 2nd fridge, 2nd microwave and 3rd dishwasher in four years.

 

[Spekkio]

My comrade, if you truly understood the first part of that paragraph, then you would connect that the rest of your dribble is incoherent mental gymnastics. Most of those augment billets (Barracks/Billet managers) are managed or detailed at or below the 0-6 level by local commands as temporary assignments.

They’re not tracked by manpower agencies nor assigned billet codes for funding (I.e. Boat spaces associated with congressional funding). They have always been associated with the cost of doing business with government quarters or running an installation. Unit personnel taxes have always existed and are akin to ships taxes for embarked units. Detailers wouldn’t have visibility on any of those additional responsibilities. If a billet became of a such a necessity that it generated a requirement for specifically trained personnel, it goes up a completely different chain for funding and billet/MOS allocations. I.e. There is no mechanism for a “budget decision” because it doesn’t exist in the current structure.

Wait, wut? Are you trying to say nothing below O6 is tracked by manpower? Seriously?

The whole gist behind BBA and SEM is to man sea-going billets in lieu of zone B and zone C shortfalls.

 

[Brett327]

The PPV housing neighborhoods across Hampton Roads are notorious for providing a substandard product.

So was Big Navy before the PPV model. You can almost always vote with your feet.

 

[Brett327]

So the government loses all that BAH and whatever is in the terms of the contract.

I’m not sure I follow. The member still receives BAH from DoD. It just goes to pay PPV rent. It’s not like the installation got their hands on the BAH under the old model to use for upkeep.

Seems wasteful to me,

Wasteful how? I’m not following there either. Just assume, for the sake of the discussion, that the PPV model is cheaper for DoD. It is, by quite a bit. Do residents get about the same level of service? On average, probably. Are there some communities that are below standard? Yep. Setting that aside, there’s a reason why DoD relies so much on contractors for so many things. It’s just cheaper.

 

[Brett327]

Wait, wut? Are you trying to say nothing below O6 is tracked by manpower? Seriously?

The whole gist behind BBA and SEM is to man sea-going billets in lieu of zone B and zone C shortfalls.

None of this is relevant to the discussion. You really are out of your depth here.

 

[Hotdogs]

Wait, wut? Are you trying to say nothing below O6 is tracked by manpower? Seriously?

I’m not going to dignify your incompetence of how personnel are managed in the military with another response. Pontificating on how you think personnel management works to Naval officers who…. ***drum roll*** …actually manage said personnel is some serious next level hubris. You probably just need to sit these kind of conversations out.

 

[Griz882]

There are a few factors that aren’t being considered in the PPV debate, and as @sevenhelmet noted, they are hard to see from the 50,000 foot level. First, there is no rate/MOS for “household handyman.” Sure, there are plumbers and electricians, and fixers, but they are all trained to work on different stuff. Even as an enlisted guy, I always considered it wasteful to have well-trained Marines mowing grass or doing base chores. So, the next step is government hiring via the WG system. That is a very expensive proposal made more so by many of the excellent benefits that come with a federal job (like a good, old fashioned retirement). PPV is certainly less expensive, isn’t plagued with rotations (like the spouse of a service member who works as a WG on base), and provides a level of stability. Occasionally crappy, yes, but better than the old days.

 

[sevenhelmet]

@Brett327 and @Griz882 , you both make good points about how contract facilities management is cheaper for the government. I’m convinced.

 

[Griz882]

@Brett327 and @Griz882 , you both make good points about how contract facilities management is cheaper for the government. I’m convinced.

We’ll send you a conversion certificate suitable for framing!

 

[sevenhelmet]

We’ll send you a conversion certificate suitable for framing!

Yeah, I actually admitted I was wrong, on the internet. I'm probably about to get canceled or something.

 

[Brett327]

There are a few factors that aren’t being considered in the PPV debate, and as @sevenhelmet noted, they are hard to see from the 50,000 foot level. First, there is no rate/MOS for “household handyman.” Sure, there are plumbers and electricians, and fixers, but they are all trained to work on different stuff. Even as an enlisted guy, I always considered it wasteful to have well-trained Marines mowing grass or doing base chores. So, the next step is government hiring via the WG system. That is a very expensive proposal made more so by many of the excellent benefits that come with a federal job (like a good, old fashioned retirement). PPV is certainly less expensive, isn’t plagued with rotations (like the spouse of a service member who works as a WG on base), and provides a level of stability. Occasionally crappy, yes, but better than the old days.

Each installation has a BOS contract, Base Operations Support, under the Public Works Officer. They have folks from all the trades that do facilities maintenance, landscaping, etc, among other things. Water main breaks? BOS has folks and equipment that dig up the road, fix the pipe, then repave the road. Leaky roof in your office, or hangar? BOS is the org that fixes it. Anything short of MILCON, if it’s repair or improvement, that’s BOS’ lane. Prior to PPV, BOS would have fixed your leaky faucet in base housing. typically, between BOS and PWD, they have a list of 1000 things to work on, and a workforce to actually do about 50% of that workload. While they’re very responsive to emergent tasks, like fixing that broken water main, they may not get around to fixing your leaky faucet, or replacing your dying AC unit in a timely manner. In contrast, the PPV maintenance team has a dedicated maint staff just for PPV, and can call in outside help if needed. While they aren’t perfect, my experience with PPV maintenance is that its is very good. They’re also under a ton of scrutiny and there are financial incentives attached to them having good maintenance metrics.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

Each installation has a BOS contract, Base Operations Support, under the Public Works Officer. They have folks from all the trades that do facilities maintenance, landscaping, etc, among other things. Water main breaks? BOS has folks and equipment that dig up the road, fix the pipe, then repave the road. Leaky roof in your office, or hangar? BOS is the org that fixes it. Anything short of MILCON, if it’s repair or improvement, that’s BOS’ lane. Prior to PPV, BOS would have fixed your leaky faucet in base housing. typically, between BOS and PWD, they have a list of 1000 things to work on, and a workforce to actually do about 50% of that workload. While they’re very responsive to emergent tasks, like fixing that broken water main, they may not get around to fixing your leaky faucet, or replacing your dying AC unit in a timely manner. In contrast, the PPV maintenance team has a dedicated maint staff just for PPV, and can call in outside help if needed. While they aren’t perfect, my experience with PPV maintenance is that its is very good. They’re also under a ton of scrutiny and there are financial incentives attached to them having good maintenance metrics.

We have a pretty large BOS (called civil engineering in the USAF) workforce in the joint Base I'm currently on. They just got gutted by DRP 1.0/2.0. The 1000 things to work on are more like 10,000 on the base and they can do about 25% of them. That includes HVAC in my buildings when it's 90+ degrees in central NJ. That's why we went out in town and hired a industrial HVAC contractor to fix our buildings. Guess which ones work now. Sometimes (oftentimes) contractors are better and cheaper as long as you write a good contract.

 

[Brett327]

We have a pretty large BOS (called civil engineering in the USAF) workforce in the joint Base I'm currently on. They just got gutted by DRP 1.0/2.0. The 1000 things to work on are more like 10,000 on the base and they can do about 25% of them. That includes HVAC in my buildings when it's 90+ degrees in central NJ. That's why we went out in town and hired a industrial HVAC contractor to fix our buildings. Guess which ones work now. Sometimes (oftentimes) contractors are better and cheaper as long as you write a good contract.

I think the Army and USAF have held on to those kinds of functions on their military side. I would always get that question when a USAF program wanted to test at PMRF... "Hey, who's your CE guy?" 50 years ago, Navy bases would probably have Seabees doing a lot of the BOS function. Today, most installations will have a CB as PWO, and usually a civil engineer as their deputy. That's really the extent of your Navy CB/CE expertise today. There's also this weird blurred line between who works for the Base and who works for NAVFAC. It gets complicated. Everything else is done by the BOS contractor, or you can work through NAVSUP to contract out specific jobs that the BOS folks can't do... like your HVAC example. /PUBLICWORKS101