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Deputy Commandant Waiver?

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
I could go into some deep historical and doctrinal rationale about Marine Aviation and by extension why Marine TACAIR exists, but I’ll try to keep this short. The Corps warfighting organizations are tailored to control battlespace and are nested in Title 10 requirements as an expeditionary force (and other assigned tasks). Dedicated air control, aviation ground support functions, and various aircraft are required to assuage the joint force concerns about the ability to command and control an assigned area. I.e. When we bite off on a piece of the three dimensional pie on a map - We better be able to seize, sustain, and defend it.

Statements about the Corps needing a capability or specific asset - have little to do with “…it’s not as good as XYZ” or “another service does this better…” but more so being able to tell the bosses “I can control this area with minimal or no augmentation from the joint force.” There is a lot more that goes into it, but that’s why we have TACAIR and it’s capabilities. We have been able to carve out large chunks of battle space from small to major theater contingencies for decades because of it. It’s a relatively unique Marine Corps capability not resident organically in the other services.

The part that I have issue with is how the USMC decides to fulfill these requirements. Leadership really drills down on some parts, and then throws fairy dust at so many others. Fairy dust ain't a damn COA, and our friends are going to be hung out to dry because a General was too full of green Kool-Aid to make an honest assessment of what a small, cheap, and agile force is really capable of.
 
I could go into some deep historical and doctrinal rationale about Marine Aviation and by extension why Marine TACAIR exists, but I’ll try to keep this short. The Corps warfighting organizations are tailored to control battlespace and are nested in Title 10 requirements as an expeditionary force (and other assigned tasks). Dedicated air control, aviation ground support functions, and various aircraft are required to assuage the joint force concerns about the ability to command and control an assigned area. I.e. When we bite off on a piece of the three dimensional pie on a map - We better be able to seize, sustain, and defend it.

Statements about the Corps needing a capability or specific asset - have little to do with “…it’s not as good as XYZ” or “another service does this better…” but more so being able to tell the bosses “I can control this area with minimal or no augmentation from the joint force.” There is a lot more that goes into it, but that’s why we have TACAIR and it’s capabilities. We have been able to carve out large chunks of battle space from small to major theater contingencies for decades because of it. It’s a relatively unique Marine Corps capability not resident organically in the other services.
But what are the litany of reasons you wouldn't want anything to do with Navy Aviation? Specifically in terms of a potential career option, if that's what was meant.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
But what are the litany of reasons you wouldn't want anything to do with Navy Aviation? Specifically in terms of a potential career option, if that's what was meant.
Are you trying to Don King a fight here? Because if you keep poking at this you're going to cause a fight.

New guy tip - more reading, less typing. You'll find the answers you're looking for in the thousands of past pages of posts. What was true 10 years ago is true today.


If you really want to know his thoughts, PM him. He might answer, if he wants to.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
But what are the litany of reasons you wouldn't want anything to do with Navy Aviation? Specifically in terms of a potential career option, if that's what was meant.

This is from my experience and just note that it is anecdotally just one random opinion, but it is an opinion shared by some peers of mine (It also has some aspects of the surface Navy taken into account unfortunately). I imagine other warfare communities and different parts of Navy aviation are better or worse in some regards.

The Navy tends to be more risk averse compared to the Corps. There seems to be no incentive to allow younger officers think and execute outside the box of standard institutional norms (doctrinally bound vs doctrinally sound). The Squadrons and ships that I’ve seen are very accustom to set schedules and plans. Adjusting schedules to accommodate something different or exploit an opportunity were meant with resistance. Even if the risks were minimal or mitigated appropriately. Marine staffs and aircrew execute based off of intent and guidance a little better than Navy counterparts. Navy commands from my vantage point were more concerned about safety, optics, risks, and perception then other priorities. I’m not saying you don’t see this in the Marines, but it was very apparent in my time with the Navy. The military is an inherently hazardous organization, and I’ve just seen Marines embrace and handle it little better than their service peers.

Navy chiefs and senior enlisted walk all over their junior officers and it seems faux pas to confront them even though those officers have every operational, moral, and legal reasons to do so. I have witnessed conversations between Chiefs and Navy LTs that I could never fathom ever occurring between a Gunny and Capt. I won’t get into the phyiscal fitness aspect of it, because enlisted Marines are indoctrinated to expect that out of Marine Officers. I do believe not looking like a bag of potatoes makes you a little more credible as a leader. Not all services concur with that thought process - Especially the Navy.

Big Navy has very regimented career paths and does not offer much room for deviation. The Corps has let its officers go all over the place and still meet metrics for promotion. It seems that each Navy community values separate jobs and doesn’t seem to look and seek the common development and education with other warfare communities (and vice versa). It is valuable to goto other places in the Corps and attain experience outside of your community. We’re smaller, but allow for more deviation in career paths. There are pros and cons to that method. Navy aviation tends to be a little more hierarchical with certain communities having a large sway over the entirety of air warfare. Marine aviators seem to tend to have more of an equal standing amongst each other and our ground brethren. The reality maybe different, but this is my perception.

Do not get me wrong - there are plenty of great dudes that wear wings in the Navy. Aside from what I mentioned above, Navy aviation is well resourced, large, and offers plenty of career opportunities. I wouldn’t deter a friend or family member from joining, but there are positive and negatives to joining either services.
 
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HSMPBR

Not a misfit toy
pilot
This is from my experience and just note that it is anecdotally just one random opinion, but it is an opinion shared by some peers of mine (It also has some aspects of the surface Navy taken into account unfortunately). I imagine other warfare communities and different parts of Navy aviation are better or worse in some regards.

The Navy tends to be more risk averse compared to the Corps. There seems to be no incentive to allow younger officers think and execute outside the box of standard institutional norms (doctrinally bound vs doctrinally sound). The Squadrons and ships that I’ve seen are very accustom to set schedules and plans. Adjusting schedules to accommodate something different or exploit an opportunity were meant with resistance. Even if the risks were minimal or mitigated appropriately. Marine staffs and aircrew execute based off of intent and guidance a little better than Navy counterparts. Navy commands from my vantage point were more concerned about safety, optics, risks, and perception then other priorities. I’m not saying you don’t see this in the Marines, but it was very apparent in my time with the Navy. The military is an inherently hazardous organization, and I’ve just seen Marines embrace and handle it little better than their service peers.

Navy chiefs and senior enlisted walk all over their junior officers and it seems faux pas to confront them even though those officers have every operational, moral, and legal reasons to do so. I have witnessed conversations between Chiefs and Navy LTs that I could never fathom ever occurring between a Gunny and Capt. I won’t get into the phyiscal fitness aspect of it, because enlisted Marines are indoctrinated to expect that out of Marine Officers. I do believe not looking like a bag of potatoes makes you a little more credible as a leader. Not all services concur with that thought process - Especially the Navy.

Big Navy has very regimented career paths and does not offer much room for deviation. The Corps has let its officers go all over the place and still meet metrics for promotion. It seems that each Navy community values separate jobs and doesn’t seem to look and seek the common development and education with other warfare communities (and vice versa). It is valuable to goto other places in the Corps and attain experience outside of your community. We’re smaller, but allow for more deviation in career paths. There are pros and cons to that method. Navy aviation tends to be a little more hierarchical with certain communities having a large sway over the entirety of air warfare. Marine aviators seem to tend to have more of an equal standing amongst each other and our ground brethren. The reality maybe different, but this is my perception.

Do not get me wrong - there are plenty of great dudes that wear wings in the Navy. Aside from what I mentioned above, Navy aviation is well resourced, large, and offers plenty of career opportunities. I wouldn’t deter a friend or family member from joining, but there are positive and negatives to joining either services.
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Lionel Hutz

Active Member
pilot
Navy chiefs and senior enlisted walk all over their junior officers and it seems faux pas to confront them even though those officers have every operational, moral, and legal reasons to do so. I have witnessed conversations between Chiefs and Navy LTs that I could never fathom ever occurring between a Gunny and Capt.
Man, you are so right about this. Drove me crazy as a JO in a squadron.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Navy chiefs and senior enlisted walk all over their junior officers and it seems faux pas to confront them even though those officers have every operational, moral, and legal reasons to do so. I have witnessed conversations between Chiefs and Navy LTs that I could never fathom ever occurring between a Gunny and Capt. I won’t get into the phyiscal fitness aspect of it, because enlisted Marines are indoctrinated to expect that out of Marine Officers. I do believe not looking like a bag of potatoes makes you a little more credible as a leader. Not all services concur with that thought process - Especially the Navy.
This must mainly be an aviation thing because I for the most part didn't see this in the surface fleet, I was just having lunch with a VFW friend who is also a retired CPO and asked him when I saw this and he said "god no" he was also surface.

I did work with a SCPO who was kind of an ass and he tried to get smart and do this with his DIVO and that lasted for all of a few days before the principal assistant pulled him into the office and I guess told him to knock it off as he was very subdued for weeks after that.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Seriously. If you wanna be all moto, be a Marine. If you want to behave more like a normal human being at work, don’t be a Marine. At the end of the day, isn’t this what it boils down to for people on the fence?
 

grodonfreeman

Bottom of the Totem Pole
I suppose that's an interesting observation- the USMC is hanging their fixed-wing TACAIR plan on two very big, very expensive platforms that have Airforce and Navy capabilities inherent to them, that perhaps the Marine Corps doesn't need.
Marines will definitely need those F-35's and Reapers if they have to campaign in the Paracel and Spratly islands. Especially, where defending ground units might be spread thinly across many islands.

Those O-5 commanders will need the responsiveness & force multiplier effects these systems provide. Yes, they're expensive, but the Commandant chose those systems over tanks and tube artillery.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Marines will definitely need those F-35's and Reapers if they have to campaign in the Paracel and Spratly islands. Especially, where defending ground units might be spread thinly across many islands.

Those O-5 commanders will need the responsiveness & force multiplier effects these systems provide. Yes, they're expensive, but the Commandant chose those systems over tanks and tube artillery.

The USMC bought some Reapers and a couple of GCS's, but they didn't buy the ability to fly anywhere, or expand beyond, the Air Force isn't flying them right now. I seriously doubt they have the money to expand into their own AOR.

The Reaper is more than a hellfire truck, and I think the USMC Reaper community is going to find itself in the purple world, much like the Prowler.

Deployed in Garrison is a hurdle that I don't think the USMC will be able to get over. They'll fairy dust it into something that may meet their bare minimum requirements, but it's very counter to the way the USMC does business. You don't have a 3-1 dwell to deploy time, you don't have predeployment workups and exercises. You don't train task organized forces at home, and then put them together and deploy them. You don't even own the people.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
Seriously. If you wanna be all moto, be a Marine. If you want to behave more like a normal human being at work, don’t be a Marine. At the end of the day, isn’t this what it boils down to for people on the fence?

…Still pissed off about that Marine stealing your bike? ?

In all honesty, I was looking for more details about why you think the aviation component of the Corps is a clown show. Purely for my own edification based off of your viewpoint and perspective.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Marines will definitely need those F-35's and Reapers if they have to campaign in the Paracel and Spratly islands. Especially, where defending ground units might be spread thinly across many islands.

The only thing Reapers would be good for in a scenario like that would be as missile sponges.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
The only thing Reapers would be good for in a scenario like that would be as missile sponges.
Also a fact. Everything the USMC says they want to do with Reapers is just a bad idea. The stuff the airplane is really good at doesn't really overlap with the 6 functions of Marine Aviation.

The Marine Corps does not need the FBI surveillance van in the sky that is the Reaper.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
…Still pissed off about that Marine stealing your bike? ?

In all honesty, I was looking for more details about why you think the aviation component of the Corps is a clown show. Purely for my own edification based off of your viewpoint and perspective.
In one word... resources. I could give you a handful of examples, but I'm sure you can imagine what I'm talking about.
 
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