DCOIC instruction vs ODS/OCS

[PenguinGal]

Do you feel that DCOs ought to receive the same or similar training to those at ODS/OCS? A conversation has popped up on another forum about whether or not DCOs should be treated like Midshipman or Officer Candidates and instructed in a boot camp fashion or if they should be 'respected' for their professional skills and instructed in a more 'professional' manner.

I am personally of the mindset that while we might be professionals in our respective career fields, when it comes to being Naval Officers we have as much experience as midshipmen of OCs and thus should be treated as near to them as possible over our two week DCOIC experience.

Thoughts? Discussion?

 

[CTN1Sid]

I agree with your perspective only in regards to non-prior service DCOs. For those of us who ARE prior service or actively serving reservist, then I think the current DCO process is sufficient. I actually think it is CRAZY that a non-prior service DCO select is sworn in and giving a uniform and bars without any real Navy knowledge. Those DCOs should be required to at least go straight to DCOIC school or better yet, OCS upon commissioning instead of sometime within the first year.

 

[PenguinGal]

[...] a non-prior service DCO [...] should be required to at least go straight to DCOIC school or better yet, OCS upon commissioning instead of sometime within the first year.

I agree with you to a point. I am a non prior who drilled for about 4 months before attending DCOIC. Given the brevity of the program, I found that a lot of things that would have made no sense to me turned into valuable lessons because I had some background experience from my drills. I don't know that I would have gotten as much out of DCOIC had I not had a few drills under my belt and saw where my knowledge was most lacking. I do believe that I would feel more prepared if I could have had more time to train. That said, I learned a heck of a lot in the 2 weeks and found it invaluable.

I don't think I agree with your sentiment that prior enlisted should keep the same DCOIC while non priors do not. If you are prior enlisted and commission (outside of LDO/CWO or one of the college programs like STA-21) you will still be required to attend OCS/ODS depending on your community. If we are trying to put all officers, AD and RC on the same level, shouldn't we all go through the same training? Do not the non priors also benefit greatly at OCS/ODS from having prior service there? What happens when you have a prior service from the USAF, USA, USMC, or USCG? Would you force them to attend OCS with the non priors or just toss them in with the prior USN enlisted and hope they pick up on the differences in the 2 weeks? The only reason I didn't bring up that possibility in my original post is that I can see that the cost of sending all DCOs to OCS/ODS in terms of time and money would be prohibitive for the Navy. It is much cheaper for them to send us there for 2 weeks and have us do our AT for the first year in that way. With limited amounts of AT/ADT available without running into mobilization issues it would be very impractical to send us through OCS/ODS pipeline. Trust me, you don't want to start playing around with order funding on the reserve side, it is a nightmare!

 

[Flash]

How different are ODS and DCOIC, I honestly thought they were just two different versions of 'fork and knife school'.

 

[BackOrdered]

I believe the question you should ask yourself PenguinGal is what am I here for and why is it the Navy feels it should take 2 weeks to train me? That isn't to say,"because the Navy needs you to be a soup sandwich." DCOs to their credit possess skill sets that a normal AD officer is generally lacking in, and your commission reflects the need to utilize your skills in the quickest way possible. Like the DCO ENSs I work with, I look to you to execute that expertise as I don't know at times how to do whatever it is you are tasked with myself (Legal, PAO, Medical etc). Do that, and you earn your keep in the command with me. I don't look to you to be an Operator or Watchstander. With time, you will make O-3 and by then you will "get it" but I don't look to you to "get it" as an ENS or JG the way I look to an OCS/Academy/ROTC junior officer. Sicking Gunny on you isn't going to make the problem any better or get you to where you are needed.

 

[Renegade One]

...when it comes to being Naval Officers we have as much experience as midshipmen of OCs and thus should be treated as near to them as possible over our two week DCOIC experience. Thoughts? Discussion?

I didn't come through this program, but my RN wife did, she thinks…, if what today is called DCOIC is anything like what was called "OIS" (Officer Indoctrination School, NS Newport) in "her day". Doctors, Nurses, lawyers, she doesn't recall what else…maybe Chaplains?

Look at the two weeks available…if that's truly the length of the course...it's a LIMFAC as to how much can reasonably be taught or experienced. Not sure how you'd replicate much else from OCS or boot camp within that timeframe.

Just my wife's $.02...

 

[LFCFan]

One of my best days at OCS was when they put the DCO people in the rose garden (sand pits to do push ups and stuff). It was just really funny to hear the people on their faces being called sir/ma'am instead of the other way around. You won't have gunny on you, but the RDCs will give you a little bit of old fashioned training, and a lot of the inspections you will do are the same as OCS (minus RLP, but frankly you all aren't there long enough to prepare for something like that). I think that you might be imagining OCS to be something it isn't. If you strip away drill, RLP, most of the academics, and candio phase, you basically have enough for a 2-4 week program for the direct commission crowd. If you look at OCS drill competitions on youtube, you will see what you are missing out on. Granted, it is a more stressful program in other ways too.

I'll also add that they have some people coming through DCO who are quite a bit older than OCS. I saw a guy go through as an O-6 to be a surgeon of some kind. I'd imagine that they probably need less of the pain and discipline than us 20-somethings.

But then again, almost every liberty incident used as an example of what not to do was about folks in ODS. Who knew that dentists were into starting fights at bars?

 

[azguy]

Do any DCOs go to active duty or are they all reservists?

 

[Renegade One]

If you strip away drill, RLP, most of the academics, and candio phase, you basically have enough for a 2-4 week program for the direct commission crowd.

I think that's about it...

I'll also add that they have some people coming through DCO who are quite a bit older than OCS. I saw a guy go through as an O-6 to be a surgeon of some kind. I'd imagine that they probably need less of the pain and discipline than us 20-somethings.

I think this as well...

But then again, almost every liberty incident used as an example of what not to do was about folks in ODS. Who knew that dentists were into starting fights at bars?

I'd want to go on liberty with these guys…but I never knew!

 

[azguy]

...when it comes to being Naval Officers we have as much experience as midshipmen...

OK, I just 'got smart' on DCO.

While your statement is true, the truth is you'll never (as a reservist staff officer) be expected to do what that Midshipman/OC will soon be challenged with on active duty. Transitioning from civilian nurse to reservist Navy nurse is a much easier adjustment than college kid to full time warfare officer (or even full time Navy nurse). Your flatter learning curve buys you a shorter training pipeline.

Remember this training costs money and carries the opportunity cost of having you drilling and contributing with your specific trade.

Secondly -- and more importantly, all I learned at ROTC was how not to make a fool of myself for a few months in the fleet. In retrospect, this isn't a very important lesson a few years later. You learn how to be a Naval Officer by doing it. I'm sorry to tell you that we could make DCOIC 6 months long and you still wouldn't know anything about the 'Naval Officer side' of your job.

The best advice I have:
-keep a good attitude (seems like you're all over that one)
-soak up all you can on your drilling weekends, put in for ADT for a few weeks if your job can support it
-be the best nurse, doc, lawyer you can while you're in uniform, that's why the Navy picked you to be here in the first place. There are plenty of us active duty guys around to do the 'Naval Officering' for you, but we don't know s*&t about medicine or the law!

 

[Renegade One]

Wow…I especially liked this snippet of URL wisdom:

...we could make DCOIC 6 months long and you still wouldn't know anything about the 'Naval Officer side' of your job.

 

[CTN1Sid]

My whole point is that every other avenue to a commission or military service for that matter requires a much more intensive "indoctrination" period; why should DCO be any different? I understand that sometimes you might have a 50 year old surgeon or dentist whose service is desperately needed, but that should be the exception and program based (i.e. JAG, Med Corps, Dental Corps). I know that nobody really wants to go to OCS or boot camp but those things serve a much greater purpose than just physical fitness; they are a right of passage and are intended to break you down to your core so that the Navy can build the type of sailor that they need on that foundation. They also serve as a baseline of training, understanding, and protocol for the Navy. Without attending those programs, people are left to "figure out" all the nuances of being a sailor.

 

[BackOrdered]

My whole point is that every other avenue to a commission or military service for that matter requires a much more intensive "indoctrination" period; why should DCO be any different? I understand that sometimes you might have a 50 year old surgeon or dentist whose service is desperately needed, but that should be the exception and program based (i.e. JAG, Med Corps, Dental Corps). I know that nobody really wants to go to OCS or boot camp but those things serve a much greater purpose than just physical fitness; they are a right of passage and are intended to break you down to your core so that the Navy can build the type of sailor that they need on that foundation. They also serve as a baseline of training, understanding, and protocol for the Navy. Without attending those programs, people are left to "figure out" all the nuances of being a sailor.

Azguy nailed it, you won't really "get it" as an Officer until you get to the fleet. OCS, ROTC and the Academy have each produced a regular crop of Ensigns who don't get it until they check in. Making DCOs train arbitrarily longer/harder won't address this, nor will it help the fleet meet its requirement for their expertise any better. Mentorship early on however does wonders.

 

[CTN1Sid]

Azguy nailed it, you won't really "get it" as an Officer until you get to the fleet. OCS, ROTC and the Academy have each produced a regular crop of Ensigns who don't get it until they check in. Making DCOs train arbitrarily longer/harder won't address this, nor will it help the fleet meet its requirement for their expertise any better. Mentorship early on however does wonders.

Then by your logic, why have these programs at all? You guys are way of the mark if you actually think that a DCO officer with no prior experience will be just as prepared for the fleet as a ROTC/OCS/Academy grad.. Or even a prior enlisted for that matter. Yes your real experience and training starts when you hit the fleet but still, that is not the same.

 

[BigRed389]

Then by your logic, why have these programs at all? You guys are way of the mark if you actually think that a DCO officer with no prior experience will be just as prepared for the fleet as a ROTC/OCS/Academy grad.. Or even a prior enlisted for that matter. Yes your real experience and training starts when you hit the fleet but still, that is not the same.

The intent of a DCO products isn't to go into the Fleet. The Navy doesn't hire a surgeon as an O-6 to do "Fleet stuff."