CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[nodropinufaka]

That was three generations ago. No matter what side of the argument anyone is on (and most people appreciate a lot of details from both "sides" of the argument), that's a pretty long time ago. People with living memory of it are retired now and people who were of voting age, then, are in their eighties and nineties now. It's like people who entered adulthood in the post-9/11 era trying to relate to the Great Depression.

In terms of living memory and oral traditions that get passed down, that's really distant.

Not trying to refute your points, just offering an explanation why it's confusing to a lot of people.

I see what you are saying.

I was more or less trying to show that some black individuals approaching middle age now had parents alive when they were being segregated.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I mean I don't understand how it is a confusing perspective to people.

When this country was founded Black people were treated as 3/4 of a person. And it took until this lifetime to make sure they had equal rights under the law.

Brown v Board of Education was not that long ago where separate but equal was struck down.

3/5th, and that is a really bad and extremely overused and misunderstood example.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

3/5th, and that is a really bad and extremely overused and misunderstood example.

The fact that it happened in the first place is horrible.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

Does anyone think race relations are better now than they were 2 years ago?

Are they supposed to be better?

 

[Mirage]

Are they supposed to be better?

Is that not the goal of CRT, BLM riots, etc?

They've succeeded in their mission to get everyone's attention and make seemingly everything about race. Does anyone feel like it's working?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Well, because of the location of his home he has to commute almost 1.5 hours to Manoa for the University everyday. And since there is zero jobs for college students in Waianae he has to find work near the college. Then he has to figure out how to get a car and how to afford it and continue this for 4-5 years.

It's almost 1.25 hours to commute from Kolina to UH. Probably takes 1.0 hours from Ewa Beach or Kaneohe (with traffic just like your Wainane commute). On most days it takes me 1.0 hours from Waikiki to HNL if there is traffic. There are plenty of people living on the North Shore with the same commute.

Further, many of the people in Hawaiian Homes have such a small percentage of native Hawaiian in them they look white. We have 4 pilots (3 Captains) that I know of living in Hawaiian Homes.

A 1.5 hour commute is pretty typical in many large cities on the mainland. I had that when I PCSed from Dam Neck to TR. Orders didn't allow a move because it was considered a local transfer.

Meanwhile the kid from Kailua whose parents have money and went to Punahoe just goes to UH and lives in the dorms and has a stipend from his parents.

Lets talk about legalized discrimination in Hawaii with the Bishop Schools.... Charter says Hawaiian blood gets priority and then if any slots remaining, non-Hawaiian blood can attend. This would be illegal discrimination based on race in any other stated. Oh yeah, lets now talk about how whenever a non-white gets in, there is outrage over the Haole and the Bishop Estate ends up paying them large undisclosed sums of manoey not to attend.

When graduation finally comes around the Hawaiian has a fancy engineering degree. Now he wants to buy a place outside of Waianae. But since he’s been in school the past 5 years and now working the real estate market far surpassed what he is able to afford.

How is this discriminatory? It's the same for everyone in Hawaii regardless of color.[/quote]

This is just a very very small example of institutional mechanisms from the past that continue to oppress people.

Nope.

I thought his post was a pretty good example.

Consider the fact that the U.S. overthrew the Hawaii gov't and stole all of their land. Then pushed the native Hawaiians to places where no one wants to live. Then they're told to "quit being a victim" and "bootstrap" your way out. Seems disingenuous or at best naïve.

No one in this thread said to blame white people. The point is the systems in place were never fair or equitable to everyone in society.

And they happened hundreds of years ago. anyone with even the smallest amount of Hawaiian blood has so many state and Bishop Estate fund programs that they have a far greater advantage over those with no Hawaiian blood when trying to better their lives.

History is full of conquerors taking the lands of the native people. Are the Welsh oppressed as the results of the Vikings overrunning and taking their island? What about Scotland? It was centuries ago and anyone that claims the overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom caused their current situation in life has the victim mentality and needs to start taking some self responsibility.

 

[HAL Pilot]

But the 6 January folks attacked the heart of our constitutional process, which is free and fair elections followed by the peaceful transfer of power. Neither the folks in Seattle nor the ones in Oregon did that.

They attacked government intuitions just like those in DC. In fact, the ones in Seattle and Portland are probably more guilty of insurrection than the DC rioters because their attacks lasted for months instead of a couple of hours. They had more planning and preparation. I think attacking the federal courts is attacking the Constitution too since they define the Constitution. And they are a coequal branch of government.

You, the Dems, liberal fake news media and the libtards just like having another thing to blame and hate on Trump.

 

[nodropinufaka]

It's almost 1.25 hours to commute from Kolina to UH. Probably takes 1.0 hours from Ewa Beach or Kaneohe (with traffic just like your Wainane commute). On most days it takes me 1.0 hours from Waikiki to HNL if there is traffic. There are plenty of people living on the North Shore with the same commute.

Further, many of the people in Hawaiian Homes have such a small percentage of native Hawaiian in them they look white. We have 4 pilots (3 Captains) that I know of living in Hawaiian Homes.

A 1.5 hour commute is pretty typical in many large cities on the mainland. I had that when I PCSed from Dam Neck to TR. Orders didn't allow a move because it was considered a local transfer.


Lets talk about legalized discrimination in Hawaii with the Bishop Schools.... Charter says Hawaiian blood gets priority and then if any slots remaining, non-Hawaiian blood can attend. This would be illegal discrimination based on race in any other stated. Oh yeah, lets now talk about how whenever a non-white gets in, there is outrage over the Haole and the Bishop Estate ends up paying them large undisclosed sums of manoey not to attend.


How is this discriminatory? It's the same for everyone in Hawaii regardless of color.

Nope.




And they happened hundreds of years ago. anyone with even the smallest amount of Hawaiian blood has so many state and Bishop Estate fund programs that they have a far greater advantage over those with no Hawaiian blood when trying to better their lives.

History is full of conquerors taking the lands of the native people. Are the Welsh oppressed as the results of the Vikings overrunning and taking their island? What about Scotland? It was centuries ago and anyone that claims the overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom caused their current situation in life has the victim mentality and needs to start taking some self responsibility.
[/QUOTE]
Ko'olina is nowhere near Waianae Hawaiian Homestead. Waianae Valley Hawaiian Homestead is 30 minutes from Ko'Olina alone.

You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are basing how the individuals living in Hawaiian homestead look. How exaclty is that not racist?

You can't even own Hawaiian Homestead unless you are 50 percent Hawaiian (And on top of that blood quantum is something made up by oppressors that didn't want to pay reparations).

It isn't the same in Hawaii regardless of color and weren't you earlier in the thread bemoaning how people call you Haole?

I don't know why you have so much trouble admitting that there were certain mechanisms in place previously that make it very hard for individuals today.

You hit the jackpot and were born into an Officers family that lived on Uncle Sam and then you yourself lived off Uncle Sam for the starting point in your young adulthood.

There is nothing at all wrong with that but if you started off living in Waianae poor I would very much guess you wouldn't have the same mindset.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

History is full of conquerors taking the lands of the native people. Are the Welsh oppressed as the results of the Vikings overrunning and taking their island? What about Scotland? It was centuries ago and anyone that claims the overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom caused their current situation in life has the victim mentality and needs to start taking some self responsibility.

It happened in 1893. That isn't 100s of years ago. And we aren't talking about the Welsh or the Vikings. We are talking about America. And you do know that Bishop Estate was established before Hawaii was overthrown, right?

Like I said earlier, it is always the same old story of "quit being a victim and take some responsibility" coming from people who never had to do it.

Why can't everyone just admit that some groups were oppressed by the government? The same government that says we are all equal. Why is it so hard to acknowledge?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The fact that it happened in the first place is horrible.

The fact that people were enslaved is horrible. The 3/5ths compromise was just politics and money. Today we count non citizens for better or worse.

 

[jtmedli]

Inside William Barr’s Breakup With Trump

In the final months of the administration, the doggedly loyal attorney general finally had enough.

www.theatlantic.com

Bill Barr is neither Congress nor is he the Democrat Party. He, and the DOJ, also had admittedly done no real investigation at the time yet drew conclusions that were passive in nature. And like I said, when people (aka the Democrat Party) are suing in order to stop recounts and stop anything from being investigated it just reinforces the assertion of foul play that people had. Congress had a duty to recognize the issues people had and instill a sense of faith in them that the election had been conducted fairly but instead they were doing the exact opposite by suing to prevent any kind of investigation.

You're right. I don't support quotas or any of those types of programs. I know it happens and don't think otherwise.

I just didn't appreciate an O-5 essentially telling us that if you were different then you're a diversity hire and don't really deserve to be there. The point of my original post is minority Officers are often judged to be unqualified before anyone knows anything about them. Just look at all the posts in this thread where other Officers tell their peers that they're only there because they're a minority. It is incredibly insulting and it is a very prevalent opinion among the Wardroom in my experience.

I agree that the XO shouldn't be saying that shit and that no one should draw those kinds of conclusions about someone else without having known the quality of their work or character. That said, I've never been in a wardroom where anyone would do such a thing or dare to say it out loud in that manner.

I'm willing to hazard a guess that if folks are stupid enough to believe that storming the Capitol would actually result in something other than them facing federal charges then there might be a good chance they could be stupid enough to be racist too. Unfortunately there are plenty of pictures to show that I am right since there was a disturbingly high number of racist symbols displayed by morons, idiots and assholes who stormed the Capitol that belies your assertion.

There were like a million people protesting that day on the hill with something like 500-1000 being involved in said riot at the Capitol building. Of that 1000 you found maybe 50-100 that had dumb shirts on or carried a Confederate flag or whatever. That doesn't necessarily mean they're devout racists, though it is possible and I'm willing to question their intelligence and social awareness. So with those numbers, you're not even breaking like 0.01% of overall attendees yet you're drawing sweeping generalizations that the entire thing was caused by "muh racism." No. It wasn't. It was a protest because people thoughy they were getting screwed at the ballot box and the only thing separating democracy (or a democratic republic in this case) from violence is faith that votes are being fairly counted. You lose that and youve lost the entire system of government and things like this will happen. To be honest, I found the entire thing pretty unsurprising given how political violence was normalized by the media so much leading up to it.

That said, and by your sweeping logic, we spent the better half of the 20th century, and hundreds of thousands of lives, "fighting the spread of communism" so should we be carpet bombing Portland with B52s because BLM and Antifa members are professed communists/Marxists?

 

[nodropinufaka]

The fact that people were enslaved is horrible. The 3/5ths compromise was just politics and money. Today we count non citizens for better or worse.

Why do people always repeat this nonsense as if it absolves the government for putting into law people whose color of skin wasn't white meant you were only 3/5th a person under law.

 

[jtmedli]

It happened in 1893. That isn't 100s of years ago. And we aren't talking about the Welsh or the Vikings. We are talking about America.

Like I said earlier, it is always the same old story of "quit being a victim and take some responsibility" coming from people who never had to do it.

Why can't everyone just admit that some groups were oppressed by the government? The same government that says we are all equal. Why is it so hard to acknowledge?

You're conflating equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. Trying to make the two things the same is how you get government induced discrimination. Everyone agrees that govt fucks people over. Conservatives kinda tend to live by that principal.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I don't know why you have so much trouble admitting that there were certain mechanisms in place previously that make it very hard for individuals today.

I admit it is hard. It is hard for anyone coming from poverty of any color. But there are many avenues available to improve one's circumstances if you have the right attitude and desire. But you need to quit having a victim mentality that blames everyone else and history and take self responsibility.

You hit the jackpot and were born into an Officers family that lived on Uncle Sam and then you yourself lived off Uncle Sam for the starting point in your young adulthood.

False assumptions. We weren't poor but military officers in my Dad's day did not make that much money. It wasn't until the Regan Presidency that military officers started getting good paychecks. Sending me to college put both my parents and myself in debt. But we paid it willingly. Getting into the Navy AOCS was not exactly easy and it was a result of my past hard work and sacrifice just as those getting into ICS today. Maybe I didn't have the struggle of an intercity black high school schoolmate who made a good life for himself, but if I didn't put in the effort I would not have gotten to where I am today.

There is nothing at all wrong with that but if you started off living in Waianae poor I would very much guess you wouldn't have the same mindset.

There is a very significant portion of our pilot group that were born and raised in Waianae. We talk on long flights. I know more than you think.

I'm not saying that there isn't a big disadvantage raising out of poverty. But it's been generations now that the laws provide equal chances and there are a very large number of scholarships, grants, work programs, etc. available for anyone that wants to quit being a victim and start taking control and self-responsibility.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

You're conflating equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. Trying to make the two things the same is how you get government induced discrimination. Everyone agrees that govt fucks people over. Conservatives kinda tend to live by that principal.

I'm not conflating anything.

I'm asking why people just can't admit certain groups were oppressed and there wasn't equal opportunity for that group.