CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[nodropinufaka]

There are plenty successful people of color who say exactly this. Some, like my pharmaceutical executive friend, I know personally. There are more than a few at my airline who pulled themselves out of poverty in places like Samoa and other Pacific islands(we probably have more non-white pilots than any other airline and I wouldn’t be surprised if whites were the minority here).

There are plenty of successfully black conservatives in the public eye who overcame this type of background saying the same thing. But they’re obviously white supremacist despite their color since they say this on places like Fox….

The Democratic Party did a complete 180 after the civil rights movement to try and win black voters. They established a system of handouts to try and right there past wrongs as a political party that did more to surpress the blacks as a whole than it helped. The results was a collapse of the family black (I.e. no 2 parent households), diminished importance of an education and lose of personaly responsibility. Why are these needed when the government will take care of you? By the time this was apparent, it was too late and the societal culture that led to the civil rights movement was lost. Instead of fighting for what was right (civil rights movement), a victim mentality emerge.

The GOP on the other hand, remained the same as they always were, provide equality under the law and expect people to take responsibility for their own lives instead of providing handouts. But expecting people to help themselves is now white supremacy and racism.

Talk to any group of black immigrants from Africa. The come from historical poverty, etc. yet they come to the U.S. and thrive. They don’t play the victim and don’t understand why U.S. blacks seem too.

Just like white peoples attitudes need (needed) to change, so must the attitudes of non-whites.

The vast majority of people I know don’t care what color you are. Mixed race marriages and children are almost the norm. They care about attitudes, ethics, ability, etc. - none of which is determined by color.

Since you’re HAL pilot you’re prob extremely familiar with HAWAII. I don’t know if you live mainland and commute or live here but let me give you an example of systemic racism and generational poverty/struggles it causes.

Let’s take an example, a young Hawaiian growing up in homestead land on the west side in Waianae Valley. Why is he all the way out west in Waianae Valley? Cause the homestead land given to Hawaiians, like Native Americans, is in the areas no one wants.

He decides he’s going to succeed and make something of himself and go to college and get a degree in Engineering. Well, because of the location of his home he has to commute almost 1.5 hours to Manoa for the University everyday. And since there is zero jobs for college students in Waianae he has to find work near the college. Then he has to figure out how to get a car and how to afford it and continue this for 4-5 years.

Meanwhile the kid from Kailua whose parents have money and went to Punahoe just goes to UH and lives in the dorms and has a stipend from his parents.

When graduation finally comes around the Hawaiian has a fancy engineering degree. Now he wants to buy a place outside of Waianae. But since he’s been in school the past 5 years and now working the real estate market far surpassed what he is able to afford.

This is just a very very small example of institutional mechanisms from the past that continue to oppress people.

 

[RoarkJr.]

Yea and that were cause systemic generational issues that continually have moved them down the socioeconomic ladder.

think of it as a an actual ladder where most people got to climb way higher simply cause their skin color and race. Then when they got up to the top after a few hundred years of oppressing others they said “oh my bad. We changed the laws. Quit being lazy and get up here”.

also. You’re whole boot straps ideology isn’t that feasible or realistic.

yes we can help them get jobs and education but they’re still much further behind.

And this Rhetoric, like @SELRES_AMDO said, almost always comes from people who never had to “quit being a victim and get over it”

This post highlights exactly what’s wrong with CRT, SJWism, internalized white guilt, etc.

The question is, and always will be, who exactly are “they”, when it comes to those who have had the generational advantages moved up the ladder? Well, you might say, the white people. You might even say most white people.

The problem with that is this: Many of you have been baited into believing and internalizing white guilt based on the successes of a very small minority of hyper successful people, white men “at the top.” The problem is that whites, taken together, don’t even make the most money in this country, and men in general are actually quite disaffected (suicide, low education, violent crime, poor, jail) etc.

I grew up poor, in trailer parks where drugs, racial violence, police over your house, were common. One day in high school I overheard a black student day “why don’t we just kill all the white people?” That is the reality. Poor people of all colors know this. Racism goes all ways.

The truth is that it’s mostly white liberals who are the most radical about this stuff, because the sense of purpose and moral superiority is tempting and powerful. It often does not come from a place of genuine concern or moral enlightenment.

The key; there is no “they.” America is a country of free individuals. This is the fundamental philosophy of the Constitution. Anyone who says otherwise and has appointed themselves arbiter of justice in regards to who is and isn’t privileged based on race, is doing so for self serving principles. Avoid.

 

[Jim123]

He was here for about three years, and he never could understand why ANYONE that lived in America could complain about anything.

I think that if we were to look at any county from the outside, and see progress similar to ours, that we would hold them up as an example. More people in the US should educate themselves on how the rest of the world is, and maybe they would appreciate what we have.

We have room to improve, but being born in the US is winning the life lottery.

It's a pretty well known thing that immigrants from poor countries to wealthy ones generally do well, not only better than they would have if they'd remained in their home country but also better than poor people natively-born to the wealthy country. It the difference between getting a fresh start, after a disruptive discontinuity in your life, compared to being stuck in a rut (which is hard).

That's not victim blaming and it's not victim enabling either, it's just a characteristic of human nature.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

This post highlights exactly what’s wrong with CRT, SJWism, internalized white guilt, etc.

I thought his post was a pretty good example.

Consider the fact that the U.S. overthrew the Hawaii gov't and stole all of their land. Then pushed the native Hawaiians to places where no one wants to live. Then they're told to "quit being a victim" and "bootstrap" your way out. Seems disingenuous or at best naïve.

No one in this thread said to blame white people. The point is the systems in place were never fair or equitable to everyone in society.

 

[GroundPounder]

It's a pretty well known thing that immigrants from poor countries to wealthy ones generally do well, not only better than they would have if they'd remained in their home country but also better than poor people natively-born to the wealthy country. It the difference between getting a fresh start, after a disruptive discontinuity in your life, compared to being stuck in a rut (which is hard).

That's not victim blaming and it's not victim enabling either, it's just a characteristic of human nature.

I ultimately believe that it is within everyone's ability to rise above their circumstances. That being said, I will concede that it is extremely hard if you have never had a good role model. I was set up for success in life by having two parents that believed in education, and that worked hard to make sure that I had the foundations for being successful in life. I would like to think I would have made it if my parents had been deadbeats, but the reality is that I probably would not have.

If we could just prevent one generation from being raised by the streets, we would all be so much better off. It is my contention that depravation, both mental and physical, that creates problems. Much more so than race.

 

[nodropinufaka]

This post highlights exactly what’s wrong with CRT, SJWism, internalized white guilt, etc.

The question is, and always will be, who exactly are “they”, when it comes to those who have had the generational advantages moved up the ladder? Well, you might say, the white people. You might even say most white people.

The problem with that is this: Many of you have been baited into believing and internalizing white guilt based on the successes of a very small minority of hyper successful people, white men “at the top.” The problem is that whites, taken together, don’t even make the most money in this country, and men in general are actually quite disaffected (suicide, low education, violent crime, poor, jail) etc.

I grew up poor, in trailer parks where drugs, racial violence, police over your house, were common. One day in high school I overheard a black student day “why don’t we just kill all the white people?” That is the reality. Poor people of all colors know this. Racism goes all ways.

The truth is that it’s mostly white liberals who are the most radical about this stuff, because the sense of purpose and moral superiority is tempting and powerful. It often does not come from a place of genuine concern or moral enlightenment.

The key; there is no “they.” America is a country of free individuals. This is the fundamental philosophy of the Constitution. Anyone who says otherwise and has appointed themselves arbiter of justice in regards to who is and isn’t privileged based on race, is doing so for self serving principles. Avoid.

Well in Academic Circles and from an academic standpoint we look at drivers that caused the advantages/disavantages not the races. We look at the mechanisms that caused the inequality such as the laws, opportunities, and anything else. And that is for any race- white included. Then we look at how we can address it.

 

[squorch2]

No one in this thread said to blame white people. The point is the systems in place were never fair or equitable to everyone in society.

Well. White people enacted and reinforced those systems. So.

 

[Jim123]

If we could just prevent one generation from being raised by the streets, we would all be so much better off.

Abstractly, this is true. But it's unconscionable to do that en masse (I realize you're not actually advocating for big government to take away people's kids and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth). Besides, I have a feeling that the law of unintended consequences would make the real results a lot different than the unintended results.

 

[Python]

I ultimately believe that it is within everyone's ability to rise above their circumstances. That being said, I will concede that it is extremely hard if you have never had a good role model. I was set up for success in life by having two parents that believed in education, and that worked hard to make sure that I had the foundations for being successful in life. I would like to think I would have made it if my parents had been deadbeats, but the reality is that I probably would not have.

If we could just prevent one generation from being raised by the streets, we would all be so much better off. It is my contention that depravation, both mental and physical, that creates problems. Much more so than race.

I’ll add that moreso than having great parents at home that aren’t deadbeats as you said, it is key to have two parents at home. Single parenthood in minority groups is higher than for whites (except for Asian Americans) and as you said, a lot of good work could be done with strong role models. Im not saying that the single parent couldn’t be a good role model, but the benefits of two parent homes are quite large.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

Well. White people enacted and reinforced those systems. So.

Correct.

The problem is people won't admit the system was designed to actively oppress colored people. It isn't about if one individual is white and they treat people fairly.

 

[robav8r]

Since all the Seattle, Portland, etc. rioters wanted to change the government they too can be called insurrectionists by definition as well by their actions.

They’re either all insurrectionists or they’re either all rioters, demonstrators or whatever.

The only difference is the lefties and the liberal media supported one side and hated the other. They tagged them insurrectionists over and over again until it stuck.

It didn't stick HAL . . . .

 

[Mirage]

Here's some serious question for everyone, especially those on the more liberal side of these arguments. These aren't rhetorical... I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts/perceptions.

Does anyone think race relations are better now than they were 2 years ago?
Do you think people, in general, are more or less comfortable around strangers from another race than they were 2 years ago?
If less comfortable, do you think this will make a small business owner more or less likely to hire someone of a different race than they would 2 years ago?
Do you think Black folks see White folks more positively, on average, than the other way around?
Do you think a Black business owner would hire a White person over a Black person, all things being equal?

My answers are that I think relations are much worse, people are less comfortable, that uncomfortability is just making the problem worse, and there are prejudices and stereotypes on both sides that cause problems. That's human nature, and we have to try to fight that nature. It seems clear to me that making everything about race all the time has sent us sprinting in the wrong direction.

I agree with Morgan Freeman: the solution is to "Stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man, and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."

 

[nodropinufaka]

I mean I don't understand how it is a confusing perspective to people.

When this country was founded Black people were treated as 3/4 of a person. And it took until this lifetime to make sure they had equal rights under the law.

Brown v Board of Education was not that long ago where separate but equal was struck down.

 

[squorch2]

Loving v. Virginia was in 1967!

(Jones v. Alfred H. Mayer Co. was likely more impactful, if less dramatic)

 

[Jim123]

Brown v Board of Education was not that long ago where separate but equal was struck down.

That was three generations ago. No matter what side of the argument anyone is on (and most people appreciate a lot of details from both "sides" of the argument), that's a pretty long time ago. People with living memory of it are retired now and people who were of voting age, then, are in their eighties and nineties now. It's like people who entered adulthood in the post-9/11 era trying to relate to the Great Depression.

In terms of living memory and oral traditions that get passed down, that's really distant.

Not trying to refute your points, just offering an explanation why it's confusing to a lot of people.