Totally agree. But a strategy that has as one of its principles that skin color is the most important part of a person, seems counterproductive to MLK’s dream.
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CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz
- Thread starter IKE
- Start date
Totally agree. But a strategy that has as one of its principles that skin color is the most important part of a person, seems counterproductive to MLK’s dream.
Honest question: how in the world can we reconcile the above? Through reparations? Through equity? One big worldwide anti-racism stand down?
Should we start taxing every caucasian over the age of 18 until death or some yet to be determined financial goal is reached? How much pain and punishment do you think we should inflict on this country to make amends for what happened during the civil war and, according to the statement above, 244 years prior?
Honest question . . . . .
Agree. The thought experiment I think about is how long does this go? Will we in 500 years or 1000 years (if we make it that far) still be thinking about skin color and the legacy of humanity’s primitive stupidity? Will debts still be owed? What is the endgame? I have read numerous articles and watched several CRT lectures by Kimberle Crenshaw that say color blindness is a naive ideal that shouldn’t be pursued. Is that true for perpetuity? I sure hope not.
I am pretty dead set against what I know of CRT so far. I think Python and Scoolbubba have both made some good, long, posts highlighting the concerns that I have with it.
That being said, I don't think it is as simple as "What you do defines you". I think that it is a somewhat true statement. But it is incomplete and not nuanced enough. I think we have to realize that the deck really is stacked against a lot of people in this country. Many of them are black. Some of them are white too. I think we have to acknowledge though that skin color has played a role in the history of this country in perpetuating the cycles you mention in your post, and that by some measure it was intentional.
As someone who was raised upper middle class, had college provided for, two parents that looked out for me etc, I absolutely know that I had huge advantages in life that others did not have. Some might call that privilege, but my parents had to work hard to do that, and I have had to hold up my end of the deal and work hard to provide for my own family now.
Conversely, I've worked in settings in which I saw the polar opposite and how the cycle of poverty truly traps people. Do I think I should have to apologize for what I received and they didn't? Not really. It is the way it is to a certain extent. Are there ways we can try to improve these problems in society? Absolutely. Is there a simple broad strokes answer like CRT? Heck no.
The problem with CRT as it is currently being advertised is that it puts all people on trial: it presumes irredeemable guilt on the part of white people, and presumes innocence on the part of minorities. If anything I think it will fan the flame of racial tensions more than help. But I think it is also helpful to consider that CRT is a reaction to historical injustices that still perpetuate themselves in some cases today.
I think the civil rights movement attempted to solve it but, as can be seen by continuing discrepancies, didn't solve all the problems. It did result in equal legal treatment for all and many advances. I feel that the attempt to address equity/systemic racism/etc is the next step as people have realized that despite great gains and improvements there is still a great deal of disadvantage for certain communities. So this is an attempt to dig deeper and to continue to improve the situation.
I don't see a lot of other alternative proposals on the table as to how to help people improve their lot in life. So I guess a plan is better than no plan at all.
If we agree that this is a problem that should be addressed, what other approaches are out there to address this?
But how ?????? Do we continue to wring our hands and lament the injustices that have occured infinitum? It seems like very powerful forces are wanting to perpetuate the problem without offering real, substantive solutions. What do you want? How can we make this right? If the egregious nature of this crime is so severe, so debilitating, why is no one talking about how we can solve the problem and move on?
SELRES_AMDO
Well-Known Member
Good luck with solving it.
People cry foul over diversity initiatives. It is so bad in the Navy that I know many Officers who think any minority Officer is only there as a diversity hire. I was told multiple times to my face that the only reason I'm here is for diversity and I know many others with similar experiences. It is to the point that I feel it is a wide spread idea among our ranks. My favorite experience was our XO telling us during a mentoring session that promotion boards shouldn't show pictures or names because they can tell someone's race and gender alluding that unqualified people get promoted.
From what I can tell, people think loosening the standards for diversity is wrong. But on the other hand, a lot of people were disadvantaged and grew up with a system designed specifically to hold them down so that they couldn't meet the standards. I have no idea how to solve the issue. It is a tough problem and the current political climate doesn't help.
People cry foul over diversity initiatives. It is so bad in the Navy that I know many Officers who think any minority Officer is only there as a diversity hire. I was told multiple times to my face that the only reason I'm here is for diversity and I know many others with similar experiences. It is to the point that I feel it is a wide spread idea among our ranks. My favorite experience was our XO telling us during a mentoring session that promotion boards shouldn't show pictures or names because they can tell someone's race and gender alluding that unqualified people get promoted.
From what I can tell, people think loosening the standards for diversity is wrong. But on the other hand, a lot of people were disadvantaged and grew up with a system designed specifically to hold them down so that they couldn't meet the standards. I have no idea how to solve the issue. It is a tough problem and the current political climate doesn't help.
A good start would be for people to understand that even after all the civil rights accomplishments, diversity initiatives, flirtation with affirmative action, that the average white person has a very different experience than the average black person in this country.
You start by having some empathy for a group of Americans, who on balance, have repeatedly drawn the short straw in our society, in our education system and in our justice system.
You start by proactively asking the POC or women in your meeting for their opinion, understanding that our society and culture has not always valued the opinions of those who aren't white males.
Real change will take generations, but I'm making choices in my personal and professional life to empower and value those who may not have experienced those things in our society.
People are talking about solving it. You don't seem to like their solution but from this post my guess is you don't have an alternative plan.
I agree with much of this in principle but I think what you’re saying is vastly different than what is being advocated for by Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ibram Kendi, Nikole Hannah Jones etc.
You are talking about treating people with dignity, respect and understanding. The CRT crowd is talking about flipping the historical race dichotomy of this country on its head and righting wrongs by committing more wrongs.
How in the wide world of sports would you know what I like Pags? I asked a serious question about solutions to a problem I'm not sure anyone has a solution for. Don't make assumptions about what I like or what you think I know . . .
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I don’t know Jones, but I find Coates completely ridiculous. Haven’t read Kendi, so I’ll reserve judgment until I do. That said, I think it’s important to divorce individual voices from the broader cause. I think that’s where a lot of folks get hung up, unfortunately.
It’s definitely something we can all choose to do, which in the aggregate, over time, makes a difference in people’s lives.
Agreed on Coates. I actually just checked out Kendi’s book from the library....want to at least have read it if I’m going to criticize it.
I am a fan of setting a minimum baseline standard, and then taking the best from every area. The Service Academies are, by Congressional mandate, required to be geographically diverse by virtue of the Congressional Nomination requirement. Let's shoot to get the valedictorian in each Congressional district. Will some be stronger than others academically, athletically, or in terms of maturity, or other tangibles and intangibles? Absolutely. But let's take the people who did the best with what they had.
A little more background on this topic: I worked in USNA admissions prior to flight school. It was cool to see the board take into account a kid from South Carolina who, on paper, excelled in everything EXCEPT his English SAT, which I think he got a 460 in (a relatively low score). His English teacher wrote USNA and said he was the best student in English in his entire graduating class and it wasn't his fault. Their English department was woefully underfunded, classrooms overloaded, books were tattered and from the 1950s. The admissions board considered "ok, we can teach him English; clearly, he's willing to learn and hungry for success as he's in the top 5 students in his graduating class." There were no indicators of his race otherwise on his application; his name was a fairly generic one. The board looked up the town on Wikipedia, saw the median income, and thought "well, that teacher is probably telling the truth about her English department. Thumbs up all around." Compare that situation to the kid graduating a top Prep School who got 600s in each SAT and was middle of his class at the Prep School. On paper which applicant is better? You can make an argument for either, but I don't think it's unfair to let the kid in with the worse scores who did better relative to his peers, and did the best he could with the resources he had. This is the same reason many colleges count a high school job helping to support a family as heavily as any other "extracurricular." At the time, (I certainly can't speak for today's Admission boards to USNA), I felt like they cared more about class rank as it was an indicator of how did you do with what you had relative to peers who had (presumably) similar resources. Knowing my SAT scores, I am certain my class rank played a significant part into all the colleges to which I gained admission.
More about me: I had do to a Prep Year program at a civilian prep school prior to my admission to USNA. I saw the scenario described from both lenses; here I was at a $38,000+ per year boarding HIGH SCHOOL that I would never have had the resources to attend on my own for the 1 year I was there, let alone for all four years, and I saw many of my classmates have that attitude of "Oh yeah, I'll get into Ivy/Near Ivy League School X/Y/Z because I went to [Insert Elite Boarding School Name Here] despite being 50th out of 110 in the graduation class." Turns out, most of those dudes got into to same State Schools (not that there is anything wrong with that) that my middle-of-the-pack 250th/500 in the graduating class of my public high school got into. What was the difference? The prep school kids were miffed, pissed, in disbelief, and felt like their parents wasted money. If those kids went to my public high school, I'm certain that they would have done better than middle of the class, but I'm not certain they would have done that much better, though they were absolutely certain of it, as if every single person who finished in front of them must be the next Albert Einstein or something.