China hiring retired UK fighter pilots?

[nittany03]

I just can’t wrap my head around saying “God save the Queen!” For twenty years and then going to China to teach NATO tactics. I tend to trust the BBC, but I wonder (hope?) there’s more to this story.

We’ve had plenty of scumbags on our end swear to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution and then do various nefarious things in violation of that oath, too. Some people just see an oath as words and loyalty as something for chumps.

 

[number9]

I can't get to the article, but is the Post making a distinction between State-sanctioned contracting jobs or just being hired by the Kingdom directly?

There is both, but a lot of the latter. If you want you can DM me your email address and I can gift you the article.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Ex-UK pilots lured to help Chinese military, MoD says

Up to 30 former UK military pilots are thought to have gone to train members of China's Army.

www.bbc.com

Kind of hard to believe…

Not hard to believe, sadly. Very much in line with China's MO of strong-arming other people's knowledge and tech wherever they can.

This must be a “thing.” The Washington Post has a similar story about U.S. stars working for the Saudi’s. Kind of like, “Step on up, pick your despot and make your money!”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/veterans-us-foreign-jobs-saudi-arabia/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001

Kind of makes you wonder about all those years we spent fighting in the Middle East, doesn't it?

The whole thing makes me sad. I feel lucky to be an American, and even though I'm not on AD any more, I think that our country is worth fighting for. China could offer me 10x my current paycheck, and I'd still tell them to pound sand. I've also spent too much time in CENTCOM to ever willingly work for one of those governments. If I want to fly for some rich asshole, I can do that here at home.

 

[GroundPounder]

Here is another article on the topic

 

[gparks1989]

On one of the major foreign contract pilot websites (Parc aviation or one of those) they were offering fast jet pilot training contracts in China. And while I find it morally dubious at best to be a hired hand for the PLA and any of its constituent services, I also find it hard to imagine they're teaching the Chinese pilots to defeat F-22s. More likely, they're teaching Chinese ensigns/2nd Its how to fly the pattern.

 

[vxc961]

Maybe they're just teaching the basics....but what a goldmine for the PLA to get a bunch of pilots who had security clearances, pay them almost $300k, probably take them on them safaris (the drive article mentions the training actually takes place in South Africa) and give them gifts. They might *think* they're just teaching cadets how to fly the pattern, but I guarantee the Chinese will try to exploit those relationships for all they can.

 

[sevenhelmet]

On one of the major foreign contract pilot websites (Parc aviation or one of those) they were offering fast jet pilot training contracts in China. And while I find it morally dubious at best to be a hired hand for the PLA and any of its constituent services, I also find it hard to imagine they're teaching the Chinese pilots to defeat F-22s. More likely, they're teaching Chinese ensigns/2nd Its how to fly the pattern.

Balls. If you think the teaching ends there, I’ve got some oceanfront property here in Wichita to sell you.

 

[gparks1989]

Balls. If you think the teaching ends there, I’ve got some oceanfront property here in Wichita to sell you.

Perhaps, but most of the photo evidence that I've seen of laowai pilots flying with the PLAAF shows them in or near trainers like this. And what're the Chinese going to learn that they don't already know? Getting a few pasty faced Brits isn't going to give them the keys to the castle (assuming they don't have said keys). These guys are idiots and deserve a peepee schwack for a remarkable lack of judgement, or at the very least geopolitical awareness. But the reporting about them, and the notion that a guy who has flown a Jaguar is helping the PLAAF gain an asymmetric advantage, is overstated.

 

[Gatordev]

There is both, but a lot of the latter. If you want you can DM me your email address and I can gift you the article.

That's okay, but I appreciate the offer. The Post is usually pretty good about parsing out nuances within a subject (although sometimes they like to ignore portions of what they've parsed out), but I was curious if they were making the basic distinction.

And for any -60R guys, if you like the desert, I can connect you with a very well-paying job flying Romeos. I can't imagine why it hasn't been filled...well, one of two anyway.

 

[ABMD]

This must be a “thing.” The Washington Post has a similar story about U.S. stars working for the Saudi’s. Kind of like, “Step on up, pick your despot and make your money!”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/veterans-us-foreign-jobs-saudi-arabia/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001

Read that article yesterday. Paying brass up to $5k/day to "consult", yikes

 

[Flash]

On one of the major foreign contract pilot websites (Parc aviation or one of those) they were offering fast jet pilot training contracts in China. And while I find it morally dubious at best to be a hired hand for the PLA and any of its constituent services, I also find it hard to imagine they're teaching the Chinese pilots to defeat F-22s. More likely, they're teaching Chinese ensigns/2nd Its how to fly the pattern.

Perhaps, but most of the photo evidence that I've seen of laowai pilots flying with the PLAAF shows them in or near trainers like this. And what're the Chinese going to learn that they don't already know? Getting a few pasty faced Brits isn't going to give them the keys to the castle (assuming they don't have said keys). These guys are idiots and deserve a peepee schwack for a remarkable lack of judgement, or at the very least geopolitical awareness. But the reporting about them, and the notion that a guy who has flown a Jaguar is helping the PLAAF gain an asymmetric advantage, is overstated.

Gaining decent knowledge first-hand from some of the better quality military pilots in the world on how they train to fight is probably well worth the money China is paying. If they were just wanting to learn the pattern they wouldn't be contracting it out and paying Brits to do it. Add the TTP's they are likely learning from these guys to the tech they've stolen, and bought, from the west in addition to what they've bought from the Russians and it improves their ability to fight us and our allies that much more.

 

[Flash]

Long story short though, a combination of greed and 'not my problem' are the most likely factors in these folks deciding to work for China.

So I went over to PPRuNe (Professional Pilots Rumour Network), a British pilot-oriented forum, to see what they had to say about this and found several folks with no problem justifying why the pilots working for the Chinese though there were also with plenty condemning them. The justifications were just what I thought to include China not really being the UK's enemy, they aren't really training them on tactics but doing test-related flying because they are contracted through a 'test flying academy' (do they sell bridges too?), resentment towards the RAF/UK for budget and pay cuts and most importantly, money...though it isn't about the money!

The thread if you want to dive in:

China recruits former British military pilots - PPRuNe Forums

Military Aviation - China recruits former British military pilots - Those of us that leave or plan to leave are fully aware of ALL the opportunities and we make our choices according to our own personal values and requirements. I was aware of China but opted for somewhere else (thats not to say...

www.pprune.org

Some of the more choice quotes:

MOD can say what they like but if those Typhoon pilots had been treated with respect, their families and work/life balance had been considered and they were paid appropriately (nobody expects £250,000 a year in the UK) they wouldn't even be looking.

As I keep saying though, 'it's not about money'!!

“they” have been approached and allegedly contracted by a “company in South Africa.” That company appears to be TFASA - Test Flying Academy of South Africa. As their name suggests, they speciali[z]e in aircraft test flying (not in the league so ETPS, but accredited by both the CAA and EASA) NOT combat tactics, weapons systems and operational capabilities.

Do you remember the (distant now it seems) era of immense prosperity where people were able to build up a comfortable existence and a pilot's salary could give you an excellent lifestyle? Well that is long gone....Poor pay, poor military housing, minimal chances of getting a decent step on the housing ladder and barely enough disposable income for a family holiday at Butlins let alone anywhere more exotic.

When put against this background the idea of securing your family's future by working overseas becomes harder to resist.

You call them traitors. I say that's business. The RAF made it very clear to us all during the 2010 SDSR that we were entirely disposable and they have shown an increasing tendency to operate like a business. Welcome to the open market.

I would call these folks whores for money who have no principles but that would be too generous and kind, at least hookers are usually honest about what they do.

 

[vxc961]

Good find! I complain as much as the next guy, but I’m grateful we get paid as well as we do and treated decently (not trying to start a debate on those assertions—just my opinion).

 

[gparks1989]

Yikes. Those rationalizations read like just about every two bit spy's reasoning for turning on their country. NoBoDy ReSpEcTs mY AwEsoMeNeSS *frowny face*

 

[vxc961]

MICE: Money, Ideology, Coercion, and Ego. It hits at least two of those pretty hard!