Carrier training

[Punk]

We fly off BARO here. You have to, especially off 19L. If you flew off the RADALT, you'd be all sorts of fvcked up.

Our LSOs never say fly off the RADALT. They told us (and I'll agree to it based purely on my EE education) that the RADALT is innaccurate over water because of the way radio/radar waves propagate off of water.

Now that's really interesting. I can't believe that the two TW's differ on something like that. Never once did any IP in K'rock (atleast any IP I had) teach to fly the pattern off the baro, cross-check sure, but always always use the RADALT. And the LSO's made sure to make a point of this.

I know some guys from Meridian were talking about the RADALT and trees. Going from 60' high trees to grass would screw you up. Of course, we didn't have that problem in K'rock. Odd, I could've sworn my Meridian buddies told me they used the RADALT too. Hell, I guess I heard them wrong.

And no one had a problem out at the boat with their RADALT giving inaccurate readings. Man, I'm kinda shocked about that point.

 

[Fly Navy]

Now that's really interesting. I can't believe that the two TW's differ on something like that. Never once did any IP in K'rock (atleast any IP I had) teach to fly the pattern off the baro, cross-check sure, but always always use the RADALT. And the LSO's made sure to make a point of this.

I know some guys from Meridian were talking about the RADALT and trees. Going from 60' high trees to grass would screw you up. Of course, we didn't have that problem in K'rock. Odd, I could've sworn my Meridian buddies told me they used the RADALT too. Hell, I guess I heard them wrong.

That's the big issue. The 60-80 foot tall pine trees. That, and if you're flying to 19L, there are two 200 foot hills in the way... your LAW set at 380 beeps multiple times in the approach turn on 19L. Which sucks at night by the way, you really need to know WHERE you are. Never once have I had anyone tell me to fly off RADALT in the pattern.

 

[airwinger]

Went to el centro and they advised fly off the radalt(was a meridian guy).

In Meridian the stressed 450 ->380 to ball but as a T-2 guy we were expected to know how to fly the ball.

for the boat the advice was to cross check them. Personally, I knew that there was a certain point in space I had to be in to get a good start esp at the field. if you were too tight, maybe faster rate of descent off the 180, LIG well just set about 50fpm and wait for the waveoff

Punk shouldn't you be getting ready for FOD walk

 

[Punk]

That's the big issue. The 60-80 foot tall pine trees. That, and if you're flying to 19L, there are two 200 foot hills in the way... your LAW set at 380 beeps multiple times in the approach turn on 19L. Which sucks at night by the way, you really need to know WHERE you are. Never once have I had anyone tell me to fly off RADALT in the pattern.

That would make complete sense. That was a small problem when we did our warmup at Whitehouse in JAX. But we were forewared about that.

airwinger, have the Prowler guys been teaching baro or radalt?

FOD walk, ha, touche :icon_tong

 

[airwinger]

Haven't seen a jet yet, and in 8 sims no ones said a word about ball flying yet.

 

[Brett327]

Haven't seen a jet yet, and in 8 sims no ones said a word about ball flying yet.

Hard to really do any ball flying in the sim. You'll get plenty of that in good time.

Punk, you class up yet?

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

We fly off BARO here. ......Our LSOs never say fly off the RADALT. They told us (and I'll agree to it based purely on my EE education) that the RADALT is innaccurate over water because of the way radio/radar waves propagate off of water.

And your LSO's are right --- ALWAYS fly the BARO --- and backup with the RADALT --- any LSO who teaches different is .... well, different. And that's what the LSO school teaches, as well. There are LSO's ... and there are LSO's. Learn it right --- do it right.

...A4's, I meant ZERO disrespect by the "anymore quetions, Mr. LSO" comment. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. If you want to take my posts as cocky, so be it, I obviously can't change your mind. Anything further, you are welcome to discuss it with me in a PM....

Your posts are "cocky" ... and you know so little. Sad, but true and all too typical today ..... But I didn't take it personally --- like I said (read it twice -- you didn't get it the first time) : I like "cocky" --- just so it's backed up with something. I just figured you didn't know any better.

A PM??? I'll send you a PM to let you know when I take direction from a JO ..... ... on this subject --- A4s OUT

 

[Punk]

Hard to really do any ball flying in the sim. You'll get plenty of that in good time.

Punk, you class up yet?

Brett

Yes I am. Got to play with the sim today, that brought a smile to my face. Got to make a night trap. <-- that pretty much sums that up

The whole RADALT thing is still striking me as odd. I know I wasn't imagining it down in K'rock.

 

[kmac]

A4s, what's the deal with teaching BARO over RADALT? Aside from C-2 specific issues with the Radalt, it seems that it is the more accurate altitude device. How would you guys do it? Set the baro to match the radalt, then use the baro?

 

[A4sForever]

A4s, what's the deal with teaching BARO over RADALT? Aside from C-2 specific issues with the Radalt, it seems that it is the more accurate altitude device. How would you guys do it? Set the baro to match the radalt, then use the baro?

Right: you should set the BARO to local settings and crosscheck on the RADALT. Use 'em both --- but one's got to be the primary altitude instrument. Like I said, there are LSO's and there are LSO's. Good ones and bad ones --- just like doctors, lawyers, businessmen, and .... pilots. Don't let the bad ones teach you bad technique and/or kill you.

At the field --- you gotta use the BARO (obviously) --- and should even when you are in flat terrain, like S Texas or somewhere else similar --- too many variables over the ground for the RADALT to be the primary instrument. Set/use the BARO --- crosscheck the RADALT --- one of 'em has gotta be the primary instrument and your scan usually works better with the BARO, unless something has changed in instrument training that I don't know about. So when you go to the ship --- you will not be trapped into "relearning" how to fly the pattern/and especially the night carrier approaches. I'm not saying you CAN't fly the RADALT --- but why would you??? Instrument training and scan would seem to dictate the BARO as the primary altitude instrument and the RADALT as backup, yes???

The BARO usually has/had (in my experience, for what it's worth) a lower incidence of failure than the RADALT. I suppose it might A/C specific, but it's a general rule. As an aside: in my airline --- WE DON'T EVEN USE THE RADALT for any VFR or CAT 1 IFR APPROACH, for God's Sake !!! I don't agree with it --- but that's the drill.
Another major airline used to set the RADALT to QFE (!!!) -- I trained with them --- and fly it as a "second" BARO altitude --- it would indicate "zero" on touchdown. A friggin' crosscheck, they said. Absolutely CRAZY !!!

Wonder whoever thought that one up .....

 

[HAL Pilot]

Another major airline used to set the RADALT to QFE (!!!) -- I trained with them --- and fly it as a "second" BARO altitude --- it would indicate "zero" on touchdown. A friggin' crosscheck, they said. Absolutely CRAZY !!!

Wonder whoever thought that one up .....

Do you mean BARO to QFE and fly it as a second RADALT to read zero on touchdown?

AA used to do this but quit doing it a few years ago (I just heard about this recently when I was using their sim for my 727 type). I think the Brits might still do it. I know their Nimrod crews were doing this at Kinloss in 1996.

 

[A4sForever]

Do you mean BARO to QFE and fly it as a second RADALT to read zero on touchdown?

AA used to do this but quit doing it a few years ago (I just heard about this recently when I was using their sim for my 727 type). I think the Brits might still do it. I know their Nimrod crews were doing this at Kinloss in 1996.

Right .... thanks, HAL .... I screwed that one up --- working on Hawaiian mental time (?) --- BARO to QFE .... in fact, I think one of AA's check captains (late 70's) said they got it from the Brits .... ??? If you want to "confuse" something pretty straight forward --- check with the Limeys. Ever see the approaches they designed in the Orient ???

 

[Dawgfan]

 

[pilot_man]

This is all so funny. When I was at Meridian it was fly the radalt, by the good LSO's, at the field, the boat, whatever. In Va Beach, at initial it is 10 mile scale, IFF off, and RADALT to the HUD. That's as flying the radalt as it gets.

 

[skidkid]

Interesting about the Baralt. We dont have LSOs but we all pretty much teach radalt for the boat pattern. Our LHD pad at pendleton is right on the coast so you get a 75 ft or so alt gain very quickly but that almost simulates the heihgt of the deck above the water.
Im guessing you guys are going from IFR handling and vectors off the baralt to final so you might as well jsut scan the barlat the whole time.
We being closer to the water are pretty radalt centric.
And the fact that you guy take NVGs off to land on the boat jsut scares the hell out of me.

Learning has taken place