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Carrier Leadership

Uncle Fester

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Flash said:
There is a difference between officially being awarded something along with being officially allowed to wear it and symbolic 'awarding', I am pretty sure USAF getting gold Naval Aviator wings falls into the symbolic category and are not official. I worked with a few guys who rated both wings through exchange tours or inter-service transfers and the USAF guys only wore their wings of gold when playing dress up at more formal occasions or in one case to be contrary when he reported to the Pentagon. The contrary guy, a well respected Colonel who did a VFA exchange tour, could get away with it to a degree but even he was told to not wear them in his everyday uniform after his first day and he said it was against regs.

That may have been the solution for some but it is specifically not official policy but actually contrary to it I believe. Combat Action Badge criteria is much looser than CAR criteria, for land-based actions at least, with much more discretion is given to Army commanders in awarding it so many folks who have a CAB would not get a CAR. This came up when I was in the desert and Army folks got CAB's while Navy folks sitting/standing/ducking alongside them got nothing.
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I'm far from an expert on AF uniform regs; the most I looked into it was when I was rushing an ANG squadron and they were trying to figure out if I'd still wear my NFO wings (the answer turned out to be the AF/ANG can 'translate' other services' wings to their AF equivalent, so with my hours I'd've rated Senior WSO wings). But beyond that, it seemed that the AF was fine with wearing pins earned from other services, so I don't know if it would've been against regs, per se.

But were they 'really' awarded, or ceremonially? I don't know the answer. CNATRA is, I assume, the only organization that can officially designate someone a NA/NFO. I have seen more than a few pilots join the Reserves from other services, and their ceremony to be awarded their Wings of Gold was being pointed toward the uniform section of the NEX. I'd say that this guy rated the wings because he did everything to earn them and the Boat Skipper pinned them on him.

This is the message I recalled reading about the CAB=CAR thing.
 
Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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Uncle Fester said:
....the most I looked into it was when I was rushing an ANG squadron...it seemed that the AF was fine with wearing pins earned from other services, so I don't know if it would've been against regs, per se.
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The National Guard often does it own thing no matter what big Army or Air Force says, I was going off of what I saw with the guys I worked with and what the one mentioned about the regs. Can't get away with much outside the norm or against the rules at the Pentagon.

Uncle Fester said:
.But were they 'really' awarded, or ceremonially? I don't know the answer. CNATRA is, I assume, the only organization that can officially designate someone a NA/NFO....I'd say that this guy rated the wings because he did everything to earn them and the Boat Skipper pinned them on him.
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I don't think that exchange folks ever officially receive the designation or wings of NA. Part of the reason I remember this was the first USAF pilots who got assigned to the land-based Prowler squadrons actually CQ'd. I don't remember how long that lasted but it didn't for too long, but I do remember that the guys were not awarded NA wings officially.

Now would anyone give them grief if they wore gold wings? Probably not their fellow tailhookers unless they were 'that guy', much like almost every FO to Pilot guy who wore both wings in dress uniform before they could legally do so and no one gave them anything but some good natured ribbing. But official? Doubt it.

Uncle Fester said:
This is the message I recalled reading about the CAB=CAR thing.
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The message is explicit that a CAB does not convert to a CAR while Combat Infantry Badges and Combat Medic Badges do almost certainly because their criteria is much more strict, for both of those you have to do something vice being somewhere like Kmac said.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
The message is explicit that a CAB does not convert to a CAR while Combat Infantry Badges and Combat Medic Badges do almost certainly because their criteria is much more strict, for both of those you have to do something vice being somewhere like Kmac said.
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Yes, the message is quite clear about the conversion but the "something vs. somewhere" is quite wrong. The criteria for the CAB and CAR are nearly identical with the exception of award of the Purple Heart (the Army awards the CAB if you get a PH). In fact, AR 600-8-22 reads almost exactly like the ALNAV when it comes to conversion of the CAR to a CAB. On the flip side, criteria for the award award of either the CAB or the CAR are nearly identical in that both are granted exclusively for contact with enemy combatants. Soldiers (CAB) like Marines and Sailors (CAR) "must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement."
 
Flash

Flash

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Griz882 said:
Yes, the message is quite clear about the conversion but the "something vs. somewhere" is quite wrong. The criteria for the CAB and CAR are nearly identical with the exception of award of the Purple Heart (the Army awards the CAB if you get a PH). In fact, AR 600-8-22 reads almost exactly like the ALNAV when it comes to conversion of the CAR to a CAB. On the flip side, criteria for the award award of either the CAB or the CAR are nearly identical in that both are granted exclusively for contact with enemy combatants. Soldiers (CAB) like Marines and Sailors (CAR) "must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement."
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No, not if you look at them closely. Indirect fire was a normal part of many a Navy sailor's life when deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan but only a handful got a CAR for it, some sailors got them before they tightened up the requirements, while CAB's where often handed out for just that. So yes, the vast majority of CAB's that I saw awarded (right term?) personally did not meet the CAR criteria, hence the differentiation in the Navy instruction between the CIB, CMB and the CAB and which ones can be converted to a CAR and which ones can't. The Navy would not have made those distinctions, in pretty thorough detail, without having pretty good justification.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
No, not if you look at them closely. Indirect fire was a normal part of many a Navy sailor's life when deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan but only a handful got a CAR for it, some sailors got them before they tightened up the requirements, while CAB's where often handed out for just that. So yes, the vast majority of CAB's that I saw awarded (right term?) personally did not meet the CAR criteria, hence the differentiation in the Navy instruction between the CIB, CMB and the CAB and which ones can be converted to a CAR and which ones can't. The Navy would not have made those distinctions, in pretty thorough detail, without having pretty good justification.
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I won't argue with your experiences. I did three Army tours in Iraq and two in Afghanistan and only early on did I see CABs going out for indirect fire events. Then again, it is unit specific. If the commander wanted to hand out CABs for Halloween he pretty much could.

On another note: Were you one the Navy guys de-conflicting signals for us hopeless Army guys? At one point it seemed like we were getting a new Counter IED box every week and I was at the point of running field wire from my truck window back to base on every patrol! Those guys were pretty amazing.
 
Flash

Flash

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Griz882 said:
I won't argue with your experiences. I did three Army tours in Iraq and two in Afghanistan and only early on did I see CABs going out for indirect fire events. Then again, it is unit specific. If the commander wanted to hand out CABs for Halloween he pretty much could.
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That was the biggest difference, unit commanders had a lot more say while the Navy controlled a lot tighter. Both made sense for the respective services but it did not equal the same treatment, and I was there late enough for the rules to be pretty set. My last boss was pretty strict about awards, he was on his fourth tour and it was the first that didn't involve regular combat so he stopped handing out Bronze Stars to the annoyance of all the Army guys who were ready for their third or fourth ones. ;)

Griz882 said:
On another note: Were you one the Navy guys de-conflicting signals for us hopeless Army guys? At one point it seemed like we were getting a new Counter IED box every week and I was at the point of running field wire from my truck window back to base on every patrol! Those guys were pretty amazing.
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No, unfortunately I was much more useless doing random staff work. I was tagged for that original deployment of the JCCS guys but they couldn't pull me out of my billet at the time but a lot of my compatriots from both of my communities went to include a few on this board.
 
MIDNJAC

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Uncle Fester said:
Having said that - there's no new skill or qualification a Navy or Marine pilot would earn by going on a PEP tour with the Air Force.
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Does flaring to land, or letting junior Airmen boss you around like an E-9 in a USN command could only hope to do, count? To be fair, at least they aren't "airpeople" yet :)
 
brownshoe

brownshoe

Well-Known Member
Contributor
IRfly said:
But, it seems, never came back to the Navy?
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Naw, he didn't. He retired from the military (AF) and flew in the show. But he wore both gold and silver and served with pride. He was one hell of a shipmate and officer. I remember him well, and the incident that led him to transfer. Proud to have known and served with him.
 
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IRfly

IRfly

Registered User
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brownshoe said:
Naw, he didn't. He retired from the military (AF) and flew in the show. But he wore both gold and silver and served with pride. He was one hell of a shipmate and officer. I remember him well, and the incident that led him to transfer. Proud to have known and served with him.
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And he had a great story to tell! :)
 
E

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
OK, thread resurrection as I didn't want to make a new thread for this question that was asked on another forum.

The discussion was going on that RW pilots command carriers at a much greater rate than FW aviators, I thought I remember seeing a post somewhere on AW that the opposite was true, and looking at the carriers I was on the RW pilots were in the minority for becoming CO's.
 
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