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Career Reflections by Pickle
- Thread starter picklesuit
- Start date
Is it true he died on the shitter at Mulligans?
Sounds legit.
We were told he died on the shitter in hangar 1000.
Either way sounds like he died on the shitter.
Pickle,
I wanted to weigh in for what its worth. After much reflection and having many of the same thoughts you did, I think it comes down to a combination of factors all of which are ramblings:
1. If I'm not mistaken you're at a squadron that recently just transitioned (last couple of years). I think part of the problem you discuss is what I saw in my squadron. As we had the plane for longer and we had thoroughbred Cat 1s come in we were more confident in flying just the P8. This is a good and bad thing. We were excellent at the glass and the computers, shitty at the stick and rudder. Luckily we had O4 P3 dudes that knew how to fuckin fly. We taught them how to not drive the plane into the ground while on autopilot and they showed us how to fly without autopilot. As we grew as a squadron after the transition we developed the ability to be comfortable in both realms. Bridging two generations and two COMPLETELY different aircraft is no easy task.
2. Now having said that. We are just above worthless when it comes to tactically employing the plane. This in my humble opinion is a result of the safety culture that is so ingrained in our heads that taking any risk at all will results in consequences. We always have the discussions about risks outweighing the costs at during pilot training at 0 kts and 1g but we seem so risk adverse that sometimes it was hard to accomplish the mission.
3. Some of it is proficiency. Now this is due to necessity and the lack of it as well as lack of training. Flying low isn't necessary so it isn't trained to. As has already been touched on, the tech allows for prosecuting at a very high alt and the tactics allow for it. It's more comfortable flying CWS roll at 1500 in the middle of the night somewhere in the Atlantic than it is to incur a significantly larger amount of risk hand flying at 300 in the same circumstances. Rare is the case that I felt that I was getting a better product down low than high, with exception to onsta weather. There may come a time when my GPS buoys don't work right or at all and I need SPS to keep its shit together and therefore I don't think we can lose the low flying confidence and aptitude altogether. However, we don't train to it. We don't do it during the day, how in the hell are we going to be comfortable doing it at night? Furthermore, the only pilot training flights we do are bounce flights which are pointless. If you can land the plane, you can land the plane, I don't need a kajillion approaches to an ILS and another flaps 30 T&G. What I need is to get my 3P comfortable rolling that big ass plane on its side and getting to the spit. Some of the blame for this rests neatly at VP30's feet for taking nearly all the tactical flying out of the CAT 1 syllabus. I have no idea what a P3 CAT 1 syllabus looked like, but as a prior CAT1 P8 dude, it was an abortion. VP30 does a good job at providing a safe pilot. The maritime community as a whole relies on the fleet to get the nuggets up to speed more than any other community. We have that luxury though, we have two extremely experienced dudes or dudettes in the cockpit that tend to offset the inexperience that a nugget brings tactically. So by extension and necessity VP30 doesn't need to teach tactics. They need safe pilots out the door to the fleet. The weapons school is responsible for fleet pilot training. This is another problem, they are always looked at sideways by VP30. The competition for talent, resources, and clout is endless. If I may be so bold, the NFOs do a great job about disseminating tactics and training their TACCOs, but the pilots are bad at advancing the envelop. They have their projects that they work on but I've yet to see a MPRWS pilot over at the squadron doing something other than FIUT. MPRWS pilots are so focused on FIUT that they don't train upgrading pilots or run of the mill PPCs. I guess they hope that the IPs they train will take it back to the squadron. To top it all off, the SMTIs come to the squadron gung ho and ready to go to bring current tactics to the pilot cadre, only to be told they are the assistant TO and what does that mean? That means they get to be the leader of the sim bitches (IPs) sitting in the OFT going through another hot weather sim. If our syllabus to PPC focuses only on decision making and safely operating the aircraft how in the world can we expect war fighting pilots that want to push the envelop? We don't know how to push the envelop because we've been taught to stay safely and conservatively right smack dab in the middle of the envelop. Now there are tactics in that syllabus, that the MPRWS owns, of course but it isn't a focal point and a lot of times it is sandbagged.
4. We all want to be airline pilots and we are lazy. Humans are inherently lazy. So if you told me that I have an 8 hour mission ahead of me and it's going to be an all nighter. I'm gonna take off and point the plane in the right direction and click the autopilot on and I won't click it off until mins on the ILS at sunrise. During the transit, we'll sit there and talk about ratings, which company is the best to work for, who is hiring, how much money we'll make, and on and on. I am as guilty as the next dude and I sure as shit hope to eventually get a job at the show and I've got nothing against the dudes that want to fly airlines. But I didn't join the Navy to be an airline pilot, it will be a by product. The difference is some dudes are here to build flight hours and go on. They're only partly wrong, if that's your means to the end then more power to you. However, if that's your ends, you better ante the fuck up before you leave and do your duty. And your duty is the mission.
These are just ramblings and I'm not sure any of it is coherent or useful but this is what I've come up with.
I wanted to weigh in for what its worth. After much reflection and having many of the same thoughts you did, I think it comes down to a combination of factors all of which are ramblings:
1. If I'm not mistaken you're at a squadron that recently just transitioned (last couple of years). I think part of the problem you discuss is what I saw in my squadron. As we had the plane for longer and we had thoroughbred Cat 1s come in we were more confident in flying just the P8. This is a good and bad thing. We were excellent at the glass and the computers, shitty at the stick and rudder. Luckily we had O4 P3 dudes that knew how to fuckin fly. We taught them how to not drive the plane into the ground while on autopilot and they showed us how to fly without autopilot. As we grew as a squadron after the transition we developed the ability to be comfortable in both realms. Bridging two generations and two COMPLETELY different aircraft is no easy task.
2. Now having said that. We are just above worthless when it comes to tactically employing the plane. This in my humble opinion is a result of the safety culture that is so ingrained in our heads that taking any risk at all will results in consequences. We always have the discussions about risks outweighing the costs at during pilot training at 0 kts and 1g but we seem so risk adverse that sometimes it was hard to accomplish the mission.
3. Some of it is proficiency. Now this is due to necessity and the lack of it as well as lack of training. Flying low isn't necessary so it isn't trained to. As has already been touched on, the tech allows for prosecuting at a very high alt and the tactics allow for it. It's more comfortable flying CWS roll at 1500 in the middle of the night somewhere in the Atlantic than it is to incur a significantly larger amount of risk hand flying at 300 in the same circumstances. Rare is the case that I felt that I was getting a better product down low than high, with exception to onsta weather. There may come a time when my GPS buoys don't work right or at all and I need SPS to keep its shit together and therefore I don't think we can lose the low flying confidence and aptitude altogether. However, we don't train to it. We don't do it during the day, how in the hell are we going to be comfortable doing it at night? Furthermore, the only pilot training flights we do are bounce flights which are pointless. If you can land the plane, you can land the plane, I don't need a kajillion approaches to an ILS and another flaps 30 T&G. What I need is to get my 3P comfortable rolling that big ass plane on its side and getting to the spit. Some of the blame for this rests neatly at VP30's feet for taking nearly all the tactical flying out of the CAT 1 syllabus. I have no idea what a P3 CAT 1 syllabus looked like, but as a prior CAT1 P8 dude, it was an abortion. VP30 does a good job at providing a safe pilot. The maritime community as a whole relies on the fleet to get the nuggets up to speed more than any other community. We have that luxury though, we have two extremely experienced dudes or dudettes in the cockpit that tend to offset the inexperience that a nugget brings tactically. So by extension and necessity VP30 doesn't need to teach tactics. They need safe pilots out the door to the fleet. The weapons school is responsible for fleet pilot training. This is another problem, they are always looked at sideways by VP30. The competition for talent, resources, and clout is endless. If I may be so bold, the NFOs do a great job about disseminating tactics and training their TACCOs, but the pilots are bad at advancing the envelop. They have their projects that they work on but I've yet to see a MPRWS pilot over at the squadron doing something other than FIUT. MPRWS pilots are so focused on FIUT that they don't train upgrading pilots or run of the mill PPCs. I guess they hope that the IPs they train will take it back to the squadron. To top it all off, the SMTIs come to the squadron gung ho and ready to go to bring current tactics to the pilot cadre, only to be told they are the assistant TO and what does that mean? That means they get to be the leader of the sim bitches (IPs) sitting in the OFT going through another hot weather sim. If our syllabus to PPC focuses only on decision making and safely operating the aircraft how in the world can we expect war fighting pilots that want to push the envelop? We don't know how to push the envelop because we've been taught to stay safely and conservatively right smack dab in the middle of the envelop. Now there are tactics in that syllabus, that the MPRWS owns, of course but it isn't a focal point and a lot of times it is sandbagged.
4. We all want to be airline pilots and we are lazy. Humans are inherently lazy. So if you told me that I have an 8 hour mission ahead of me and it's going to be an all nighter. I'm gonna take off and point the plane in the right direction and click the autopilot on and I won't click it off until mins on the ILS at sunrise. During the transit, we'll sit there and talk about ratings, which company is the best to work for, who is hiring, how much money we'll make, and on and on. I am as guilty as the next dude and I sure as shit hope to eventually get a job at the show and I've got nothing against the dudes that want to fly airlines. But I didn't join the Navy to be an airline pilot, it will be a by product. The difference is some dudes are here to build flight hours and go on. They're only partly wrong, if that's your means to the end then more power to you. However, if that's your ends, you better ante the fuck up before you leave and do your duty. And your duty is the mission.
These are just ramblings and I'm not sure any of it is coherent or useful but this is what I've come up with.
Envelope
Nice
Can’t relate to this at all. I’ve been flying these things for a long time and have been consistently blown away by the talent and professionalism of young officers and aircrew. They can’t all be great, but I’ve had a front row seat to a bunch of all-JO crews flying around the clock real world ASW against the most challenging targets in the world, embracing risk and getting the job done. There are crews on station right now somewhere in the world, employing the shit out of the P-8 and kicking ass. You could be one of them someday. If you’re in a low performing squadron, be the guy who elevates the crews he flies with. Learn to articulate risk decisions to leadership. Change the culture, do the work.
Absolutely agree. I saw none of the issue that Pickle related at my squadron. Our Skipper had every upgrading PPC bring him out to the warning area and do 45 degree turns at 200' with gear on for our MOB checks. If I had run into pilots at my squadron that were not comfortable coming down to 200 feet, I'd have them talk to training to get them more proficient at it, because I assume they just don't have enough experience with it. Otherwise, they need to learn how to operate the plane safely in all flight profiles, and not just hope that HAASW saves them from ever having to do it.
I struggle to even think of what climbing back up to update the brief would even accomplish. What else is there to brief? "Hey, I'm coming down to 200 feet, call me low at 180. The water will be closer. Any questions?"
During one exercise, our area was socked in from 18k' down to about tree-fiddy. We got our gear on, worked our way down, leveled off at 300 and did our work there, with nary a peep from the back row or from my other two pilots. I'm a lot more comfortable spitting buoys at 300 feet in VMC then at 1500 spitting through the clouds, especially during an exercise with friendly and other ships out there. I checked out of my first tour in December, so I imagine I'm roughly the same age as Pickle's pilots, and having met no pilots like that so far, I sincerely think (hope) that they are the exception and not the rule.
With the greasy spoon there, I believe it.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
My most recent deployment relied heavily on coordination between us, air assets, and surface assets. Your community was instrumental to the fight and you did it well. Stop being so self-loathing.
“Thoroughbreds.” Ha. Ok.
And I thought “the pros nest” sounded exceptionally douchey, even for MPRA.
I do remember the first “thoroughbred” coming through the FITU and almost washing out while learning how to instruct in a single engine trainer but maybe that was just me being an old school dick.
And I thought “the pros nest” sounded exceptionally douchey, even for MPRA.
I do remember the first “thoroughbred” coming through the FITU and almost washing out while learning how to instruct in a single engine trainer but maybe that was just me being an old school dick.
Meh, you can take it both ways. Purebred also has the snooty stuck up connotation as well. As we go along and next year you even have solely P-8 guys up for DH, it’s less of a thing, but early on I think it was important to highlight who had what experience to understand mindsets. Early on we had to teach the new guys how to turnover to a P-3 for expectation management.
This thread has been interesting to me for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it kind of sums up my whole time in the Navy. When I was an AW I was on of the first guys to show up to my squadron without any H-46 experience. One of the thoroughbreds if you will. I remember all the old, seasoned guys tell us all how we had it easy and that we'd never love the -60 as much as they loved the Phrog, that the -60 would never replace the Phrog, that it wasn't the best for the mission....you see where I'm going with this.
Fast forward, and ironically I become an F-18C guy. I was now on the other side of the argument is was indoctrinated into a community that had to "work harder and smarter" to get the same job done as the spoiled F-18E/F guys. I can guarantee that every Rhino person is tired of hearing "well, in the Charlie we had to".....
The point is, there are no more Phrogs or Charlies in the Navy....and very quickly there won't be anyone left who ever experienced flying either one of them. Times change, but people don't. The -60 and Rhino pilots are just as good as the Phrog and Charlie pilots, they just have different stuff to work with and master. The lesson is about trying to make all the P-8 "millennials" into the best P-8 pilots they can be...even if that means the tactics and techniques you used in the P-3 are no longer relevant.
TLDR; get with the times old man
Fast forward, and ironically I become an F-18C guy. I was now on the other side of the argument is was indoctrinated into a community that had to "work harder and smarter" to get the same job done as the spoiled F-18E/F guys. I can guarantee that every Rhino person is tired of hearing "well, in the Charlie we had to".....
The point is, there are no more Phrogs or Charlies in the Navy....and very quickly there won't be anyone left who ever experienced flying either one of them. Times change, but people don't. The -60 and Rhino pilots are just as good as the Phrog and Charlie pilots, they just have different stuff to work with and master. The lesson is about trying to make all the P-8 "millennials" into the best P-8 pilots they can be...even if that means the tactics and techniques you used in the P-3 are no longer relevant.
TLDR; get with the times old man