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Career Reflections by Pickle

Angry

NFO in Jax
None
When third tour aircraft commanders go "we can do that?" when I briefed an island tour VFR flight, then yea, the community sucks at embracing any level of adaptability. MPRA's "unacceptable deviations from the norms" are what everyone else just calls "flying the plane." The risk averse culture is so baked into our air quotes best and brightest at the RAG that they literally can't fathom there are different ways to skin the cat that are all legal.

This is so spot on. I've never been one to embrace the self fellating ice cream cone that is VP-30, but I know maybe 2 pilot LTs there who actually want to get low and dirty to kill subs. Everyone else is talking about their ATP, which are the best RNAVs to use for PPT, and a bunch of other shit that has nothing to do with the mission set.

If you sat down and had lunch with the VP-30 P-8 cadre, you'd think they all flew C-40s for VR. Frankly, it's pretty embarrassing, and it shows when we go someplace like AWF or Red Flag and our crews show their asses and get shot down continuously. But, this is what you get when the FRS has virtually no tactical syllabus and holds complete sway over the MPRWS (not only who they get billet wise but also what they teach and how they teach it).
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
It was in your reply to my first response.
Copy. Wasn’t derogatory, in fact, was an admission of trouble I’m having. Not sure what term I’m supposed to use for the generation of pilots after mine. I was born in the ‘70s, they were born in the ‘80s or ‘90s...
 

KTBQ

Naval Radiator
pilot
Back in the day we had hard decks:
200 day VMC
300 night VMC or day IMC
500 night IMC
1000 with 2 engines loitered.

There was no briefing we’re descending from whatever to whatever. If we were at 2000 feet tracking and it was time for an attack, we went down. The only brief was “going below a 1000” on the interphone so everyone knew to put their LPAs on.

This should be routine and not require a special brief. If a P-8 pilot can’t fly low without being scared, he shouldn’t be flying.

From what I can see from the peanut gallery, VP is becoming the laughing stock of naval aviation. With this attitude, it’s no wonder.

Nostalgia for the good old days. It's not that P-8 pilots can't fly low, it's that they (usually) really don't need to. Most of the reasons that P-3s lived in the low altitude environment no longer apply. Continuous plot stab updates, accurate buoy placement, all of that can be done from comfortably above 1000 feet. Some guys don't like punching buoys through clouds relying on radar alone for clearance, but the community will slowly come to grips with that TTP.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Nostalgia for the good old days. It's not that P-8 pilots can't fly low, it's that they (usually) really don't need to. Most of the reasons that P-3s lived in the low altitude environment no longer apply. Continuous plot stab updates, accurate buoy placement, all of that can be done from comfortably above 1000 feet. Some guys don't like punching buoys through clouds relying on radar alone for clearance, but the community will slowly come to grips with that TTP.
Except where it is specifically prohibited by CG.

Also, this is great in low sea states, and I have no problem doing it myself when I’m confident the APY-10 can pick out the fishing vessels strewn about the AOP (or the helo you are working with) but I’m not willing to bet someone else’s life, or my wings, on a radar that might get three good sweeps when I roll out of a turn half a mile from the buoy when I can just use the MK-1/MOD-0 eyeballs to back them up (along with the MX-20 in IR) on a rough day where the swells may mask the radar return...
 

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
Aside from concerns about dropping ordnance on someone, consider also that when the next major conflict starts, you could find yourself in one of several situations where doing your business at low level makes your odds of mission success and survival better.
 

Angry

NFO in Jax
None
Nostalgia for the good old days. It's not that P-8 pilots can't fly low, it's that they (usually) really don't need to. Most of the reasons that P-3s lived in the low altitude environment no longer apply. Continuous plot stab updates, accurate buoy placement, all of that can be done from comfortably above 1000 feet. Some guys don't like punching buoys through clouds relying on radar alone for clearance, but the community will slowly come to grips with that TTP.

What the unqualified (or barely qualified) guy in the back thinks he "needs" versus what the WTI MC/AC says he needs are the issues under discussion. Sure, maybe the nuggets think they can get the job done well enough at 1,000'. But there are things that will undoubtedly suffer - your MOTs (which yes, you still have to do for SPSS to work properly, even with -53Gs), your buoy placement (wind effects the drops, even with 800' difference in altitude), your ability to make VID on the target on shit weather, and your ability to clear below in shit weather.

What do you gain by staying at 1000'? Additional comfort? Fuck that, not important - we don't brief it and it's the first thing to go if operational necessity dictates. Safety? No, you are just as safe at 200' as you are at 1,000' with fully qualified pilots. Gas? Sure, maybe a little - but you should have fuel planned better if a 800' altitude decrease causes you to RTB early. Radar horizon? Yea, but that might or might not matter depending on your tasking and it definitely wasnt mentioned by Pickle as an issue raised by the crew.

I'm technically a millennial based on birth year - so I kind of agree that this probably isn't a generational problem. It sounds like a lot more of a bunch of whining babies problem, or maybe that the crew has never faced scenarios that make them realize why Pickles decisions are necessary in certain scenarios. More communication is always better...except when its complaining during the flight that you wont be comfortable at a perfectly acceptable flight envelope because you are wearing gear and it might be bumpy. FFS, you're in the NAVY. You might be uncomfortable occasionally to complete your assigned tasking! The horror! Chances are you wouldnt be bitching it if it was a Delta flight to somewhere exotic, and the only difference is the P-8 has better leg room!

If you dont understand the decision, bring it up at debrief. Otherwise - put your damn gear on. Actually, do that anyways.
 
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