Career Reflections by Pickle

[xj220]

As for the quals issue, we typically have three pilots on board. The 3P has a basic copilot qual coming out of -30 and it allows them to be a copilot for any situation essentially and allows them to know how to land the aircraft in limited situations. If on a tactical flight with three pilots and there's a big enough emergency, the PPC will throw the 2P in the seat for more experienced backup. The 2P can sign for the aircraft (but never does) and can handle any emergency from the left seat only and limited situations from the right seat. If a 2P were to sign for the plane, they'd only be in the left seat. A PPC can land from any seat in any situation and handle all emergencies we train to, and is expected to handle everything else.

 

[Recovering LSO]

it depends on how you choose to define "known abnormal configurations" and then where you draw the line on that.

not to be a smart-ass, but we could start with the ones that have checklists in the PCL..?

I guess the underlying point of my previously posted rhetorical question was - if the fleet is seeing continually reduced flight hours then why doesn't the fleet demand a better product from the FRS? Instead of being forced to teach and train 3Ps around the field (and thereby pissing off Devin), why not capitalize on the separate pot of flight hour money that drives the FRS? Its been done before by other communities - if you want to see a FRS skipper jump, have a group of fleet COs start whispering about the quality of the product.... Then again there might not be an appetite for that level of cultural change. Back to my hole

 

[KBayDog]

Harriers take off with at least two emergencies every time they leave the boat - min fuel, and single engine. Those boys have balls... Especially when they were having a lot of rollbacks...

No shit. Harrier Dude(s) redefine insanity every time they roll down the tram line.

I'm glad I took the time to really get to know these nutjobs and get a peek into their world early on my first MEU; when my 2- and 3-engine peers bitched about the shipboard "needs" of AV-8s...of which there are many...I was able to slap 'em back in line.

What always blows my mind is how they're able to balance that elephant on the end of the pencil over a moving vessel...often with no chance of a go-around...with the ridiculously low number of hours they fly.

 

[PropAddict]

not to be a smart-ass, but we could start with the ones that have checklists in the PCL..?

What is this PCL you speak of?

I haven't seen one of those since I turned in my T-34 version at the end of Primary. We always fly with a full copy of our NATOPS, all 1500ish pages of it. We drag along Vol. II (another 1500, different pages) for the tube trolls when we fly tactically.

There is just no way to teach all of that in ANY FRS. So, we say "what is the bare minimum we can send this guy out with to take off and land safely in 90% of common situations." This is the 3p (Copilot) NATOPS check. It takes 6 months to train a CAT I for this (and really, it takes about 3 months, but due to a/c age and availability it drags out a bit longer).

You wanna sign for a plane? You best be learning that extra 10% and 50% more minutia. This takes another 18 months, although could probably be done faster with more airplanes and flight hours to go around.

Our community has decided it is more beneficial to get guys through the FRS faster and train them up in the fleet, than to have a 2 year RAG syllabus producing fully-qual'd pilots (I suspect part of this was done as a QA issue to minimize VP-30's ability to corrupt new pilots, but I digress). This doesn't work in other communities for obvious reasons of fewer seats with their own control sticks.

 

[Jim123]

not to be a smart-ass, but we could start with the ones that have checklists in the PCL..?

I was thinking a little more basic than that- more like what gets included in those checklists. (And what gets removed when it turns out it just doesn't ever happen after years and years and thousands of flight hours.)

I guess the underlying point of my previously posted rhetorical question was - if the fleet is seeing continually reduced flight hours then why doesn't the fleet demand a better product from the FRS? Instead of being forced to teach and train 3Ps around the field (and thereby pissing off Devin), why not capitalize on the separate pot of flight hour money that drives the FRS?

Now that's a really good question.

 

[Pugs]

It gets very chaotic, especially in the flight station because you have the most uncomfortable O2 mask on and are trying to fly the plane while running checklists and helping the guys in the back determine what could be on fire.

I just assumed you guys wore the same mask we in TACAIR do (well, did in my case) when you needed it. What makes it worse?

 

[81montedriver]

Can't speak for the P-3 Bubbas but I'll assume the emergency o2 mask is similar. It's a mask and visor meant to slip over the headset. Unfortunately the vox in the mask sucks and the visor fogs up. The only time us herc guys wear the same mask as tacair guys is during military free fall operations over 13000ft when we have our ramp and door open.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I pose the question for the P-3 heads in here: how much of this training process is dictated by necessity, and how much is just institutional inertia? I know the requirements are different between my community, and yours, but I still think that the TTT issue is a cop-out. 2 years to fully qualify a guy to take-off, handle IFE's, and land in all configurations? Or is that including tactics and other such things? Is the simulator not a viable alternative to actual time in the aircraft for EP training? We do almost all of our EP stuff (to include NATOPS/instrument checks) in the sim, and IMHO it is much better training. About all that you can simulate in the actual jet is a precautionary single-engine approach, and I only did a couple of those in the entire FRS syllabus. The sim on the other hand, can be very complex, demanding, and realistic. With a good NATOPS checker, it is also a really good tool to understand in a practical way, those random and lesser-known EP's that while not boldface, can certainly ruin your day in a hurry. This isn't to say that we don't get the experience in the aircraft as well (God knows, RAG jets are a NATOPs check on every flight), but my point is that you guys could probably be doing more for less if people got serious about it. Then again, maybe it just isn't that important to have a fully qualified pilot when there are 2 other dudes waiting to grab the controls.

 

[Pugs]

Can't speak for the P-3 Bubbas but I'll assume the emergency o2 mask is similar. It's a mask and visor meant to slip over the headset. Unfortunately the vox in the mask sucks and the visor fogs up. The only time us herc guys wear the same mask as tacair guys is during military free fall operations over 13000ft when we have our ramp and door open.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks

 

[PropAddict]

2 years to fully qualify a guy to take-off, handle IFE's, and land in all configurations? Or is that including tactics and other such things?

That includes tactics. We frequently wonder why they can't at least do the whole 2p syllabus at VP-30 (which means basically all systems and EP trng), then just get smart on tactics at the squadron. Haven't heard a good answer yet, except that it would mean a huge backlog of getting RP's to the fleet initially and would mean a big jam up for guys getting to 30 to class up.

Is the simulator not a viable alternative to actual time in the aircraft for EP training?

For in flight EP's, yes, and all of our upgrading syllabi are @50% sims. The CRM bit as XJ220 alluded to is tough to simulate because our level D sims are flight station only, so you don't get the 9 other people who all want to talk at once during the various EP drills. For landing emergencies, I think the sim sucks. Not high enough fidelity, not the right "feel." The FAA apparently agrees since our "Level D" sims are not certified to count for flight time/currency like other people's are.

Then again, maybe it just isn't that important to have a fully qualified pilot when there are 2 other dudes waiting to grab the controls.

I think this is part of it. When budgets first started getting slashed, somebody had a "good idea" and saved some money.

 

[Machine]

There are 2 NATOPS quals for pilots in the P-3: Pilot and Copilot. The FRS produces Copilots for CAT-1 students. This is all that's required, because there's always going to be a NATOPS-qualified Pilot on every sortie. That guy (Pilot) will know how to handle all the EPs. The Copilot just needs to know how to run the checklists and backup the Pilot. It'd be a huge waste for the FRS to produce Pilots for CAT-1 students, and those students would miss out on a lot of experience while they're upgrading in the fleet squadron.

The sim is great for learning/dealing with systems malfunctions, but it sucks at simulating how the aircraft flies (especially in the landing pattern). For multi-engine aircraft, pilots need to know how the aircraft is going to react when that engine fails during takeoff, or what it feels like when you're reversing with only 2 engines on one side.

 

[Gatordev]

What is this PCL you speak of?

I haven't seen one of those since I turned in my T-34 version at the end of Primary. We always fly with a full copy of our NATOPS, all 1500ish pages of it. We drag along Vol. II (another 1500, different pages) for the tube trolls when we fly tactically.

There is just no way to teach all of that in ANY FRS. So, we say "what is the bare minimum we can send this guy out with to take off and land safely in 90% of common situations." This is the 3p (Copilot) NATOPS check. It takes 6 months to train a CAT I for this (and really, it takes about 3 months, but due to a/c age and availability it drags out a bit longer).

You wanna sign for a plane? You best be learning that extra 10% and 50% more minutia. This takes another 18 months, although could probably be done faster with more airplanes and flight hours to go around.

Our community has decided it is more beneficial to get guys through the FRS faster and train them up in the fleet, than to have a 2 year RAG syllabus producing fully-qual'd pilots (I suspect part of this was done as a QA issue to minimize VP-30's ability to corrupt new pilots, but I digress). This doesn't work in other communities for obvious reasons of fewer seats with their own control sticks.

I've got to believe the "we have so much to know and need 3,000 pages of knowledge to help us" is a combination of community inertia ("We must know how many microns are in that filter!") and age/complexity of your airframe. If we remove the community inertia part for a second, I would argue that many of those pages (and the "redundant" quals) start to go away with the P-8. Certainly not all of them, but there's no way two guys on the 9:30 to Tampa are going through 1500 pages of knowledge when one of the blinky lights goes in their 737. Add tactics, and sure, more pages (and quals) get added, but you get my point.

Now factor community inertia back in and...well, maybe you guys are just screwed. Can we agree on 750 pages?

 

[xj220]

Haha, I think some of it is community inertia. I honestly haven't had to deal with that much minutia, at least compared to what others have been talking about. You are correct in that a lot of the systems are very complex and that doesn't help.

As for the O2 mask, I've always wanted to wear the jet type, but we don't wear helmets. The masks we have do have visors, but they're hard rubber and general fit. I liked the ones in the T-44 where you press a button and they inflate automatically, unlike the rubber strips you need to clamp down on your head.

There has been growing resentment on what the FRS delivers to the fleet, but the response I heard (second hand though, never personally) was "deal with it." A lot of us like the idea of having the pilots coming as 2Ps to the squadron and essentially get rid of the 3P desig, but that'd cost way too much money and with the reduction in flight hours, age of platform, lack of equipment, etc. students would be there way too long. MIDNJAC, the length of time comes out in the wash though when you count advanced and the FRS into the mix. Advanced is only 6 months and the FRS is about 8 which is about half of what you guys go through I believe. When you get to your squadrons though you're full AC while we have to go through another syllabus (ideally 18 months, but we have up to 24). Overall it's still longer for us, however it's not as bad.

For the sim, I'll +1 what everyone else has said so far.

 

[Jim123]

... need 3,000 pages ... Can we agree on 750 pages?

Easy- shrink the font to 1/4 of the original size.

Next question!

 

[MIDNJAC]

MIDNJAC, the length of time comes out in the wash though when you count advanced and the FRS into the mix. Advanced is only 6 months and the FRS is about 8 which is about half of what you guys go through I believe. When you get to your squadrons though you're full AC while we have to go through another syllabus (ideally 18 months, but we have up to 24). Overall it's still longer for us, however it's not as bad.

Yeah, I can see that being a little different. I did 15 months in Merids, and another 15 months in the Hornet RAG, so I guess going out the door of the RAG, we probably have the flight hour equivalent of a prospective PPC (I have > 400 mil hrs, 130 of which are in the Hornet). That being said, we also have our initial NATOPS check and begin logging A/C Commander time for jets after about 8-10 flights in the syllabus depending on how skeds works it (at least for the majority of flights which are solo). This makes me wonder if, possibly, the road to signing for an aircraft has to be so long. Granted when I sign, I'm signing for myself and myself only, and not 10 or 40 or 100 other dudes in the back.