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C-9's

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The Grass is Greener!
pilot
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Contributor
I don't think the rewards are necessarily worth the pain, but always something to keep in your back pocket when the detailer is trying to send you to the boat. "Hey isn't the AF looking for C17/C5 pilots? And lookey here, my committment is up..." Gee, not like you don't see the mass exodus also at the VTs... don't know if that is still going on, but saw it when I was going through..
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
Same thing was going on when I went thru VTs back in '97. At my last command (fleet tour), four out of the top six LTs won't be coming back as department heads... And the disassociated sea tour has a lot to do with it. There's other factors, but the whole career path as it stands right now is broken.

Grandmaster 235
 

ghost_ttu

Registered User
John has that been known to happen? I know that you can do an inter service change with your commission when your contract is up, but I have never heard that Naval pilots could switch to the AF as pilots and vise versa.

"praying to the SNA board gods couldn't hurt...."
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
I think he meant a transfer after your commitment is up. Otherwise the nav would have to release you from your commitment - not gonna happen!

Grandmaster 235
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
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Yes, it does happen, I know a couple of guys that have done it, P3s are a straight switch to C5s/C17s/C130s anything cargo. You can check out the AF website here:

http://afas.afpc.randolph.af.mil/trainer/AOT3/Accessions/IST.htm

You have to serve your Navy commitment first, then you get out of the Navy, and then the AF picks you up. You are a "hired gun" though, you don't have the right tickets punched to make AF command, so you are a non-threat to the other AF pilots who are working that route, you just fly for your five years or whatever you sign up for and take the bonus. The AF is NOT short of pilots (especially with the airlines not hiring, except Southwest, right Frumby?), but it is always easier to take a fully trained known commodity from another service.
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
That's right... They just want a warm body to manipulate the flight controls... Which doesn't sound like that bad of a deal if you're looking down the business end of orders to a DESRON staff!!!

Grandmaster 235
 

hobe

Registered User
Grandmaster-
How does the career path/progression typically go for the helo guys after the first sea tour? What do you mean by the career path is broken?

John-
Do most P3 guys go to VT squadron's for their next tour? What are your other options?

Thanks guys, just looking to find out more about how the career paths typically work for the different pipelines. Is one pipeline better than the other if you're looking to stay in longer than 10 years? I'm assuming that the disassociated sea tour is where you do a sea tour in another job (???)
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
Great questions, hobe. You might be asking them a little early, but not by much!

Helo career path: After you do your first sea tour (right now typically 36 months, can/will vary due to manning), you will roll to SHORE DUTY. This could be a flying job (IP at VT/HT/FRS, SAR and/or C-12 pilot attached to an air station, test pilot, VX-1/rotary wing, etc.) or a non-flying job (NROTC/USNA instructor, NASC instructor, recruiter, admiral's aide, shore staff, etc.). But don't worry, you'll get flight pay either way!! Shore duty is a good time to get a master's degree if you want to stay in, but there are more and/or better opportunities later in your career (war college, NPGS, etc.). Shore duty lasts 24-30 months, and when you're done you'll be close to your obligation, so you might be able to extend and then get out if you so desire. If you stay in, you're 95% likely to be headed for the DISASSOCIATED SEA TOUR, which means non-flying, and on the boat. They range from crappy (battle group staff) to sucky (ship's company on an amphib or carrier). True, some are better than others, and everything is what you make of it, but I always wondered why they don't make SWOs so a "disassociated" GenAv tour!! You don't need a HAC letter to make command as a SWO! Anyway, I'm starting to rant, which leads me to your next question:

Why I think the career path is broken: Mostly because of its inflexibility and the inequitable way in which it's applied. This is a big navy with lots of interesting jobs and places to go, but the way the career path is laid out for JOs, if you want a shot at command (and if you plan on staying in longer than 10 years, you're in this market) then you never get a chance to really take jobs that are interesting to you or that you might find personally fulfilling. You have to follow the party line and go be a staff weenie or a shooter or get your OOD letter on a flat top. Here's the dirty little secret - most VF/VFA guys don't have to do a DST - because of "manning concerns." Well, the manning concerns are same for VP and helo communities but the pointy-nose guys have all the admirals and move all the money around in this navy, so they get the better end of the deal when it comes to career progression... I'm not digging on the jet guys - that's just how it is and it's great for them, but it sucks for everyone else. If I was CNP for a day, I'd scrap the whole "career path" for JOs, except to say that they HAVE to do an intitial sea tour, and then we'll see ya back at the 11.5-year mark for your DH tour. Use the time in between as you see fit, develop skills and goals that suit you as an officer, warrior, and an individual. But, what do I know?

Which pipeline is best to stay in 10+ years? You've picked an odd number there, actually. Your commitment will take you to about 9 years (helo/VP) or 10 years (jets), and if you stay in any longer than that, you're probably going to be in for 20. So the real question is which pipeline is best to make a career with. Well, you can probably surmise the answer from my comments above. I loved flying helos - they were my first choice and I'd probably do it again - but command opportunities for HSL pilots suck, and your chances of wearing a star are extremely remote. A lot better for VF/VFA. Is that because they have better leaders/officers? I'll let you decide when you go on active duty!

These are hot-button issues for me... Feel free to email me if you have other ??s, or post here. Good luck, hope this was helpful...

Grandmaster 235
 

hobe

Registered User
Grandmaster-
thanks for the reply, very helpful. I'd like to avoid making mistakes early on that will hinder my career progression later, sounds like there's alot to learn. Good to hear some perspective from someone around helos as well. As for the commitment, it's the same across the board now, 8 years for all platforms, at least that's what my papers said when I swore in about a month ago. If you don't mind I'll shoot you an email sometime in the next few days. Just curious, you said the majority of people are getting out rather than doing the disassociated tour, what are you planning? Are there good helo jobs on the civilian side for the amount of time you come out with or do most guys try to pick up some fixed wing time?
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
Hobe,
Definitely lots to learn about career stuff - the best thing to do is, when you get to your fleet squadron, pick an O-4 that you repsect/like and get in his back pocket for career advice/mentoring. Zero in on the guys who you would like to be like - find out what they did or wish they would have done - take the knowledge, use it as a tool to forge your best path!

Interesting about 8 years across the board. Guess I'm showing my age! I stand corrected.

Helo jobs on the civilian side... Another good question. When it comes time for you to stay/go after your first commitment, you're looking at a pay cut to fly helos on the outside - so marry rich. Seriously - the best paying jobs for helos (not going to guess at $$ amounts IOT avoid spreading bad gouge) are life-flight and corporate gigs. Those jobs get sucked up by Army guys - mostly warrant officers who fly, fly, fly, and have no "ground job," so they leave the service with 4000+ hours. The only way you'll even come CLOSE to competing with those guys is to go to the HTs for shore duty and be the "cross country guy" who racks up a ton of hours. You could put 3000 hours in your pocket that way. Life-flight services are often run by contractors and they can make you move around the country on a whim. The next step below those jobs ($$-wise)would be law enforcement. Local (police/sheriff) commonly require you to drive the beat for up to two years before putting on a flight suit. Federal jobs (customs/DEA/etc.) are good because your military service counts toward federal retirement - but the locations are limited. The bottom feeder helo jobs are ones like traffic copter and oil rig logistics. Don't bother with those - you'll make three times as much as a manager at Wal-Mart.

As far as what I'm planning - well I got lucky and pulled a good deal for myself. More on that if you email me. Glad to answer any helo/flight school/career/navy/etc. questions you may have. Good luck!!

Grandmaster 235
 

Davey

Registered User
G-master, it seems you have an incredible amount of factual knowledge on helos. Do you know of a site where I can find out how many of each type of aircraft the Navy has? Also, how many fixed wing aircraft does the Navy use?


Go Get 'Em
 

Grandmaster235

World's Greatest Pilot
Originally posted by Davey
Do you know of a site where I can find out how many of each type of aircraft the Navy has? Also, how many fixed wing aircraft does the Navy use?

You can try www.google.com

Seriously - there probably is such a site but I'm not familiar with it. Someone here will probably chime in with the answer.

Curious - why do you think that information would be useful to you?

LUCK = THE INTERSECTION OF PREPARATION AND OPPORTUNITY
 

jwilliamsee

Registered User
see if you can get a copy of the fleet yearly fleet review in all hands magazine from your recruiter. it has the numbers of each airframe. one thing i noticed about the numbers was that the marine aviators mostly fly helos. not saying good or bad just that there dosent seem to be many f-18's in the marines. the navy has lots
 

JayManC

Registered User
the marines have gotta move troops somehow....the navy has ships for that

<insert something witty here:>
 

JayManC

Registered User
john and grandmaster, i bumped into this guy at work the other day (an old a-6 driver) and was inquiring as to what hes doing now....he's spending time flying c-12s (king airs) out here (either Oceana or chambers field) and getting by at OPTEVFOR with my stepfather. definitely the life

<insert something witty here:>
 
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