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Blackwater Helo down in Iraq
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
I don't know if this has been posted, but here's a link to a local article on Blackwater, Inc. They are only 40 or so miles from here, so when anything goes down, it makes the local paper.
Kinda like in Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow
This was just posted 10 hours ago by Blackhawk Aviation's Program Manager, and the dead pilot's brother. He was flying with his brother when he went down. Heres the real scoop on what happened.
http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/post/1001
http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/post/1001
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thull
Well-Known Member
As a side note, this brings Blackwater casualties in Iraq to 27 so far.
http://www.dangerzonejobs.com/artman/publish/index.shtml
http://www.dangerzonejobs.com/artman/publish/index.shtml
Art Laguna was in my unit here in California. I never got the chance to fly with him. He had left prior to my arrival. I met him this past summer and we had a long talk about Blackwater.
He and his family are held in very high regard in the Califonia guard. The guy was the real deal. Prior to this tragedy I had heard many stories of Art's heroics. He will be greatly missed.
He and his family are held in very high regard in the Califonia guard. The guy was the real deal. Prior to this tragedy I had heard many stories of Art's heroics. He will be greatly missed.
So how does that work with a guy being in the Guard/Reserves and working for a PMC. I always thought it would create a sort of conflict of interest. Is it somewhat common to have Guard/Reservist pilots flying for them over there? Are there Specwar reservists doing the same thing? What are the regulations?
Its a hard argument on either side. These guys are over there supporting our troops and interests. They are being paid well for a reason. Maybe if Congress realized how valuable the military is, the pay might even out. But you cant blame a guy for doing the same job for more money, especially when its towards the same goal, and its your option how often you deploy instead of being told. Plus they are allowed to attack certain targets that the normal military isnt due to "political reasons."
By the way, people talk about how some of the contractors have died or been left stranded.... Not like that has never happened to fellow soldiers. Guys in Mogadishu survived only to enter a shitstorm and be hung out until someone not in the government stepped in. Just read Durant's book about his capture and what really got him released.
By the way, people talk about how some of the contractors have died or been left stranded.... Not like that has never happened to fellow soldiers. Guys in Mogadishu survived only to enter a shitstorm and be hung out until someone not in the government stepped in. Just read Durant's book about his capture and what really got him released.
mercenary according to the Geneva Convention:
Art 47. Mercenaries
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
I sat through a week long Law of War course a year or so ago and Blackwater was brought up. The military lawyers (O-5's/O-6's) teaching the course tapped danced around the idea of Blackwater being mercs. Interesting discussion. Spin it how you want, Blackwater is borderline mercenary work ... Art.47 (d) is shady, the rest is pretty much spot on in describing Blackwater, according the G.C. definition.
Disclaimer: I honestly could care less what Blackwater is called ... they are doing some good work over there, and making good money while they are at it. Just call a spade a spade when it applies. We are quick to place labels on other countries but when we do something similar we slap a politically correct label on it and think it's all good and well so we can sleep better at night.
Art 47. Mercenaries
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
I sat through a week long Law of War course a year or so ago and Blackwater was brought up. The military lawyers (O-5's/O-6's) teaching the course tapped danced around the idea of Blackwater being mercs. Interesting discussion. Spin it how you want, Blackwater is borderline mercenary work ... Art.47 (d) is shady, the rest is pretty much spot on in describing Blackwater, according the G.C. definition.
Disclaimer: I honestly could care less what Blackwater is called ... they are doing some good work over there, and making good money while they are at it. Just call a spade a spade when it applies. We are quick to place labels on other countries but when we do something similar we slap a politically correct label on it and think it's all good and well so we can sleep better at night.
That's right ... and if you don't like it ... why don't you talk to your elected representatives and suggest they address it and FIX IT ... ??? 'Cause they are the enablers (by virtue of sanctioning a too small military if we are going to continue to police the world and have worldwide responsibilities and interests ) and they are the ones who created this growth market in America ...
That is my problem with this whole thing, forces in and out of the military have created the situation where a private company like Blackwater can come in and do what is the military's work. These guys were guarding a US Embassy convoy, good work, but why was a private company doing it? Where the heck was DSS? Why the heck not use miltary guys for it? (I know why, we don't have enough......)
The reason that companies like Blackwater make me uncomfortable is mainly because of accountability and control. While the law has recently been amended to make sure that these guys fall under US military law, http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,121592,00.html there are still accountability issues if one of these guys do something wrong. What if they ignore advice and drive through the wrong part of Fallujah? Who takes the brunt of the violence that ensues in the next few weeks? The Marines in Fallujah. The contractors often answer to only the people they have the contract through. If some contractors were contracted to State and some Army guys told them if their convoy went through a particular area they would disrupt current ops, the contractors could ignore them.
Who do these guys ultimately answer to? Their company or country? I don't have a problem with most of the guys who are doing the work, but I do have a problem with the entire concept of mercenaries fighting a war for the US.
That's a myth - something they used to say about people who won the lottery. I know of a guy in FL who actually did win the lottery, but stayed in. He was just "that First Class who drove a Bentley."
I'm sure you "could" get out if you wanted to, but I don't think there's anything that mandates it.Brett
That's a myth - something they used to say about people who won the lottery. I know of a guy in FL who actually did win the lottery, but stayed in. He was just "that First Class who drove a Bentley."
Brett
I think there are some instructions out there that allow someone to seperate from the service under certain cicumstances if they have a 'sudden windfall'. The servicemember has to put in for it and get approved but I have heard fo it several times. There is no requirement to get out though.