• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Blackhawk / CRJ-700 Midair

I've tried to find the legal basis for charging to for each arrival at a public airport. There is wording in rules for the Interstate Highway System that identifies the criteria for future toll collection. I know of no such wording in the ATC/Airport system wording. If anyone knows of the Act or Reg please post here.
 
I've tried to find the legal basis for charging to for each arrival at a public airport. There is wording in rules for the Interstate Highway System that identifies the criteria for future toll collection. I know of no such wording in the ATC/Airport system wording. If anyone knows of the Act or Reg please post here.
Most of it now falls under the FAA airport improvement grants program. FAA Grant Assurance #22 allows airports to set fees for the use of facilities as long as they are reasonable, applied uniformly, and not used to unfairly restrict access. The same program restricts owners or municipalities from taking these fees for other non-airport uses thus creating a closed loop where fees can only be used for facility improvements.

If you like regulatory language you can sum it all up here!
 
My home airport (I68) goes all in on the issue and promotes its "no fee" policy. The Airport has received a number of federal improvement grants and is on track to receive 1000' + runway extension to accommodate demand from jet traffic.
Probably a very behind the scene fight between local ATC arguing about personnel and workloads vs local business owners wanting the ramp and fuel sales.

Not saying that there isn’t a need to motivate some clueless GA pilots out there or mil guys who just want to because they can. There is definitely a balancing act to retain wider access that needs to be maintained.

Honestly I think a better place to put the motivational finger is to get people to put radios in their damn aircraft and use them. This isn’t 1946 anymore.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mos
I know of no such wording in the ATC/Airport system wording. If anyone knows of the Act or Reg please post here.

No one (here) is arguing there's a legal basis for it, but nonetheless it's happening. AOPA has started to make a little noise and there's a bill in Congress right now that's supposed to touch on GA privacy, and by extension, prevent capitalizing on ADSB data.

You can restrict your data through the FAA website, however that doesn't prevent the already existing third party commercial databases from being utilized, since they've already pulled all of the data from the FAA. If you do lock out your information, it will take time for it to be culled, basically not really happening until you sell and/or buy a plane and the ownership info isn't updated in the third-party databases.

I've intentionally not restricted my data because I find value in allowing my parents or friends to be able to track me when I come to visit. It sucks those are the only two choices we have.
 
No one (here) is arguing there's a legal basis for it, but nonetheless it's happening. AOPA has started to make a little noise and there's a bill in Congress right now that's supposed to touch on GA privacy, and by extension, prevent capitalizing on ADSB data.

You can restrict your data through the FAA website, however that doesn't prevent the already existing third party commercial databases from being utilized, since they've already pulled all of the data from the FAA. If you do lock out your information, it will take time for it to be culled, basically not really happening until you sell and/or buy a plane and the ownership info isn't updated in the third-party databases.

I've intentionally not restricted my data because I find value in allowing my parents or friends to be able to track me when I come to visit. It sucks those are the only two choices we have.
Also, in some cases, airfield use cameras to record N number for billing purposes.
 
Honestly I think a better place to put the motivational finger is to get people to put radios in their damn aircraft and use them. This isn’t 1946 anymore.
TINS- the Richmond, VA FSDO made the soaring club I belong to remove the batteries and electric instruments (to include radios and transponders) out of a good portion of our gliders because they were not certificated with an electrical system. Handheld radios don't work well in a metal box, and gliders don't give a very good radar return.

These are the same people that went after us for not having an A&P sign off on the airplane every time we put one together after taking it out of it's trailer.

In my experience FSDOs aren't actually concerned with safe operations, they exist to say, "don't blame us" if something goes bad. They're the same people who say, "this would be a great place to work if it wasn't for all the airplanes on the ramp and the pilots who fly them."
 
TINS- the Richmond, VA FSDO made the soaring club I belong to remove the batteries and electric instruments (to include radios and transponders) out of a good portion of our gliders because they were not certificated with an electrical system. Handheld radios don't work well in a metal box, and gliders don't give a very good radar return.

These are the same people that went after us for not having an A&P sign off on the airplane every time we put one together after taking it out of it's trailer.

In my experience FSDOs aren't actually concerned with safe operations, they exist to say, "don't blame us" if something goes bad. They're the same people who say, "this would be a great place to work if it wasn't for all the airplanes on the ramp and the pilots who fly them."
Spot on @Swanee - this is a reflection of my own experience managing a club and with individual aircraft ownership. Compliance over practical safety. Its killing the GA community. Pilots and owner/operators should treat every FSDO interaction as a jeopardy event.
 
TINS- the Richmond, VA FSDO made the soaring club I belong to remove the batteries and electric instruments (to include radios and transponders) out of a good portion of our gliders because they were not certificated with an electrical system. Handheld radios don't work well in a metal box, and gliders don't give a very good radar return.
WTF? Lots of planes flying were certified w/o electrical systems. Some later had the capability added within FARs. My plane was certified in 1939 w/o electrical system, built in 1946. I now have lights radio and transponder on a battery, no generator. That FSDO is AFU. Their enforcement actions clearly compromise safety by denying pilots of those aircraft the ability to deconflict, call for weather, etc.
 
Spot on @Swanee - this is a reflection of my own experience managing a club and with individual aircraft ownership. Compliance over practical safety. Its killing the GA community. Pilots and owner/operators should treat every FSDO interaction as a jeopardy event.

I think it's something that AOPA, SSA, EAA, etc... should be working with the FAA to fix. The barriers for entry are hard enough. Throw in clowns like this and it's no wonder we can get people interested in flying.

WTF? Lots of planes flying were certified w/o electrical systems. Some later had the capability added within FARs. My plane was certified in 1939 w/o electrical system, built in 1946. I now have lights radio and transponder on a battery, no generator. That FSDO is AFU. Their enforcement actions clearly compromise safety by denying pilots of those aircraft the ability to deconflict, call for weather, etc.



100%. Safety be damned, we're right, you're wrong. Most everyone else put everything back as soon as the FSDO ramp check people's taillights were visible. There was a lawyer in the club who's firm took the lead for the club. No reasonable person would ever argue that increasing safety margins is a bad thing.

The other problem is that each FSDO is their own little fiefdom and can interpret the FARS and regs the way they want to. As my dad completed his CFIG add-on, this same FSDO tried to take my dad's ME/MEI rating away (and any student he gave training to) because the A-10 didn't have a published Vmc in the air, only for taxi/take-off and landing. He told them where they could go, drove to the Greensboro, NC FSDO, submitted his paperwork there and they gave him no trouble.


I completely understand why a lot of GA pilots don't want anything to do with the FAA.
 
He told them where they could go, drove to the Greensboro, NC FSDO, submitted his paperwork there and they gave him no trouble.
Do these chuckleheads consider people just shop around excising the difficult FSDOs? When I was ready for my logbook review for my ATP, I was told flat out to avoid this Office and go that Office because one was notoriously adversarial and critical, the other reasonable and helpful. Worth the drive.
 
Do these chuckleheads consider people just shop around excising the difficult FSDOs? When I was ready for my logbook review for my ATP, I was told flat out to avoid this Office and go that Office because one was notoriously adversarial and critical, the other reasonable and helpful. Worth the drive.

I was lucky- the Fresno FSDO was a helpful guy, and very military friendly when I was doing my Milcomp and add-ons. I actually ended up renting airplanes from him for a couple of years off and on between deployments.

My issues with the FAA these days are more with DC and OEM-related. Local guys are mostly good. We had one real piece of work who thankfully retired.
 
Most of it now falls under the FAA airport improvement grants program. FAA Grant Assurance #22 allows airports to set fees for the use of facilities as long as they are reasonable, applied uniformly, and not used to unfairly restrict access. The same program restricts owners or municipalities from taking these fees for other non-airport uses thus creating a closed loop where fees can only be used for facility improvements.

If you like regulatory language you can sum it all up here!
Today I was brought up to speed and the efforts to institute landing fees at the home airport of my chapter of the AAHF. In this case the fees are promoted by the city, primarily to cut down on noise complaints. The city hopes that it will discourage touch and goes and training in general. The scheme is for five free landings a month. Starting at the 6th landing it's a $28.00 fee per touchdown per airframe. There are several flight schools on the field including a very large CAE ab initio program. Also based on the field is MD helicopters and Boeing helicopters. Boeing is pushing back even though it would have little impact on their operations. This particular fee schedule was supposed to accommodate the basic currency requirement by getting 3 takeoffs and landings every 90 days. I's clear that any fee per landing is going to impact currency as its very intent is to discourage flying activity. The airport generates over $750 million in economic activity. The airport itself is against landing fees, but it is owned by the city. Meanwhile very large city owned legacy hangars pay rent to the city on the order of 75% less than market rate for a lease on the more numerous private built hangars on airport leased land.
 
Today I was brought up to speed and the efforts to institute landing fees at the home airport of my chapter of the AAHF. In this case the fees are promoted by the city, primarily to cut down on noise complaints. The city hopes that it will discourage touch and goes and training in general. The scheme is for five free landings a month. Starting at the 6th landing it's a $28.00 fee per touchdown per airframe. There are several flight schools on the field including a very large CAE ab initio program. Also based on the field is MD helicopters and Boeing helicopters. Boeing is pushing back even though it would have little impact on their operations. This particular fee schedule was supposed to accommodate the basic currency requirement by getting 3 takeoffs and landings every 90 days. I's clear that any fee per landing is going to impact currency as its very intent is to discourage flying activity. The airport generates over $750 million in economic activity. The airport itself is against landing fees, but it is owned by the city. Meanwhile very large city owned legacy hangars pay rent to the city on the order of 75% less than market rate for a lease on the more numerous private built hangars on airport leased land.
Sounds like an interesting effort championed by someone who is not a pilot.

My grumpy old man take: Keep discouraging training, and you’ll have fewer well-trained pilots. That’s just one more skill America is mortgaging to the NIMBYS. Pretty soon, we’ll be like the gun community- “training” for most people will consist of what gets posted on Reddit, because most people won’t have a way to find real quality instruction.

But hey, mUH PRoPERty VaLUes, and your HELOC for your next kitchen remodel will be secure.
 
Back
Top