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Barak Obama Speech @ DNC
- Thread starter akamifeldman
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kevin
Registered User
"Let's just agree that abortion should never have become a political issue...."
---sorry to disappoint, but i don't agree. it IS a political issue. if it potentially violates someone's rights (baby or woman), how exactly is it not a political issue. you're saying women should have the right to choose and it never should have gone beyond that....solid argument. but i digress.........cate and i are not arguing (this time) whether abortion is right or wrong, we're arguing about the ramifications of those beliefs, whatever they may be.
"I think the abortion issue comes down to the difference between "wrong" and "illegal". There are plenty of things out there that you shouldn't do, but that doesn't mean that they should be made illegal - after all, isn't the government best that governs least? Kerry takes the position that a surprising number of Catholics take - that being that abortion isn't a good thing and should be kept to an absolute minimum, but that it's not ours to tell a woman that she can't have one, especially when it's medically necessary. Yes, we'll counsel her and give her all of the alternatives that we can provide, but in the end, it is her decision. I can't imagine that I'd even have an abortion myself, but I wouldn't tell another woman that she absolutely can't, because I can't be in her skin and understand what she's going through."
---legit argument, but first off, throw out the medically necessary cases, because the church doesn't oppose that necessarily (and let's be real, that constitutes less than .01%, somewhere equivalent to cases of pregnancy out of rape). the argument you're making is ignoring the severity of an issue. when taking things in the context of human life, the ramifications go way beyond withholding tax dollars or something. in this case, wrong and illegal are very strongly connected (equivalent in fact). the problem is that under the one set of beliefs (and that includes the catholic church) abortion is murder, nothing short of it. from that viewpoint, to say that it's "not a good thing" and should be kept to an "absolute minimum" isn't even close to enough...it's absolutely morally reprehensable. when you say it's her decision, you completely ignore that, which is only one side of the debate (it's like ignoring the other side exists). secondly, regardless of whether john kerry or a good number of catholics hold that belief, it's flat out against the teaching of the church. when you say that people have disagreements with the church and that's ok, you are lumping all those things in together. no way....i have my problems with some teachings...let's say i think women should be allowed to be priests. well, there is certainly the potential for gray area there....abortion is in a completely different ballpark within the church. there is not gray area...never will be. saying that john kerry is trying to "reconcile" his views with the catholic church is the problem....there isn't anything to reconcile. like i said, it's one of the few things within the church that is non-negotiable at it's core.
" As for the faith thing - faith and religion are two very different things. Religion is an institution, a big group of people agreeing to worship in the same way, and most people have some small - or not so small - disagreements with their religions. Faith has to do with one's personal relationship with [insert deity here]; Kerry's relationship with the Catholic church has nothing to do with that."
---true to a point. but the fact is (and i can only speak from the perspective of one church), the church is called the "faith COMMUNITY", meaning that while each individual has a relationship with God, the are under one community....and that doesn't mean everyone believes whatever and it's fine (that's called moral relativism). part of being part of the community means you accept certain things, otherwise you are not a part. you have the freedom to choose what to believe, but that doesn't give you a free ride into the community. what kerry is doing would be identically equivalent to one of the officers on this forum going IN UNIFORM to an anti-american rally...plain and simple. that's my point.
---sorry to disappoint, but i don't agree. it IS a political issue. if it potentially violates someone's rights (baby or woman), how exactly is it not a political issue. you're saying women should have the right to choose and it never should have gone beyond that....solid argument. but i digress.........cate and i are not arguing (this time) whether abortion is right or wrong, we're arguing about the ramifications of those beliefs, whatever they may be.
"I think the abortion issue comes down to the difference between "wrong" and "illegal". There are plenty of things out there that you shouldn't do, but that doesn't mean that they should be made illegal - after all, isn't the government best that governs least? Kerry takes the position that a surprising number of Catholics take - that being that abortion isn't a good thing and should be kept to an absolute minimum, but that it's not ours to tell a woman that she can't have one, especially when it's medically necessary. Yes, we'll counsel her and give her all of the alternatives that we can provide, but in the end, it is her decision. I can't imagine that I'd even have an abortion myself, but I wouldn't tell another woman that she absolutely can't, because I can't be in her skin and understand what she's going through."
---legit argument, but first off, throw out the medically necessary cases, because the church doesn't oppose that necessarily (and let's be real, that constitutes less than .01%, somewhere equivalent to cases of pregnancy out of rape). the argument you're making is ignoring the severity of an issue. when taking things in the context of human life, the ramifications go way beyond withholding tax dollars or something. in this case, wrong and illegal are very strongly connected (equivalent in fact). the problem is that under the one set of beliefs (and that includes the catholic church) abortion is murder, nothing short of it. from that viewpoint, to say that it's "not a good thing" and should be kept to an "absolute minimum" isn't even close to enough...it's absolutely morally reprehensable. when you say it's her decision, you completely ignore that, which is only one side of the debate (it's like ignoring the other side exists). secondly, regardless of whether john kerry or a good number of catholics hold that belief, it's flat out against the teaching of the church. when you say that people have disagreements with the church and that's ok, you are lumping all those things in together. no way....i have my problems with some teachings...let's say i think women should be allowed to be priests. well, there is certainly the potential for gray area there....abortion is in a completely different ballpark within the church. there is not gray area...never will be. saying that john kerry is trying to "reconcile" his views with the catholic church is the problem....there isn't anything to reconcile. like i said, it's one of the few things within the church that is non-negotiable at it's core.
" As for the faith thing - faith and religion are two very different things. Religion is an institution, a big group of people agreeing to worship in the same way, and most people have some small - or not so small - disagreements with their religions. Faith has to do with one's personal relationship with [insert deity here]; Kerry's relationship with the Catholic church has nothing to do with that."
---true to a point. but the fact is (and i can only speak from the perspective of one church), the church is called the "faith COMMUNITY", meaning that while each individual has a relationship with God, the are under one community....and that doesn't mean everyone believes whatever and it's fine (that's called moral relativism). part of being part of the community means you accept certain things, otherwise you are not a part. you have the freedom to choose what to believe, but that doesn't give you a free ride into the community. what kerry is doing would be identically equivalent to one of the officers on this forum going IN UNIFORM to an anti-american rally...plain and simple. that's my point.
akamifeldman said:Apparently Steven Spielberg produced a movie chronicling Kerry's life, to be shown tonight right before his speech. A movie, and a speech supposed to last 50 minutes...I might clock out after the first fifteen!
Was that Spielberg that did that? I thought it was just one of Kerry's friends that is producer/director?
kevin
Registered User
just to add, as a public figure you have an even greater responsibility since you are essentially witnessing to the (in this case) world what your beliefs are, not just jane and joe next door. and to think that john kerry is trying to rectify his beliefs as opposed to just getting votes....that's absurd to me. after all, besides being pro-choice and anti-bush, what are his beliefs? doubt anyone really knows.
Cate
Pretty much invincible
That's the thing - as a politician, he's not witnessing to anything. His personal beliefs don't matter in this, only that he's willing to represent the beliefs of his constituents (or, in this case, the citizens of the US). Someone wrote a letter to the Atlanta paper today saying "I may consider it sacrilegious to eat slaughtered cow, but if I hold public office, I must acknowledge that some wonderful people love a juicy filet mignon," and I think that's the thought process that our leaders need to have. I don't want a president who's so caught in his own beliefs that he won't support me in mine.
akamifeldman
Interplanetary Ambassador
Right, our leaders are supposed to be supremely accountable at the end of the day to the people. He must embody the beliefs of everyone, because he's the one government official elected to represent all the people, all the time.
it was definitely related... if you go back to the beginning of the thread a few people mentioned our beloved coach ditka... and i for one love the levitra endorsing former bear, so i figured i'd give everyone a little SNL one-timer. there was no intent to steal the thunder from those takin about obama, just trying to be friendly, and possibly induce some laughter
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