Bar Stool Economics

[Pat_Lucas]

Hope I am not outta my lane here

Living in a red state I have heard a lot about the fair tax. Unfortunately, in my opinion that name is a misnomer. The thing about a fair tax is that while it seems to be fair because everyone pays a flat rate is that this does not take into account what that flat rate means for the lower earners. I am not going to write to much because while I did some research on it, I am still not as informed as some others are. Either way I did some maths and used a few sources so here is the link to that Excel(in '03 format but if you want '07 let me know) spreadsheet if you are interested.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=09debf46d165c90bd2db6fb9a8902bda

You will however note that when the tax rate is adjusted using the website I used (http://www.smartmoney.com/tax/filing/index.cfm?story=taxbracket) You will notice that the percentages for the 10.3% upper brackets are not much different from a 25% flat tax, But that the lower 89.7% have significantly more relief given the current situation.

I will also point out that I did not intentionally try to skew any of the data and if you see something that i missed or overemphasized please let me know.

I will let you gentlemen who are more wise in this subject debate it.

 

[eddie]

I didn't want to be an engineer either, but I still decided to get a real degree anyway.

Yeah, 'cause median starting salary is an awesome way to pick a major...

 

[HueyCobra8151]

I'm not against all liberal arts, I just hate it when I talk to some kid who quit or didn't even try to pick a major that was in the least bit difficult, then I sit in and hear about how we are having a problem with the decline of engineers in this country.

 

[MPH]

...The thing about a fair tax is that while it seems to be fair because everyone pays a flat rate is that this does not take into account what that flat rate means for the lower earners...

I believe you mean the flat tax, there is no rate in the "fair" tax beyond the assessed sales tax. You would be correct about its effect on the low wage earners however it is at least a partially regressive tax, there's a reason I always put the word "fair" in quotes. While it may be true that large earners may spend more on sales taxable items, they also spend less proportionally in relation to low income individuals, because they save more.

In the interest of full disclosure, my main reason for not wanting the fair tax is I'm working on an accounting degree. If the Navy won't take me I'd like to have a job.

...I wasn't an engineer. I could have been. I chose not to because while I was really effing good at math and science, I didn't enjoy them, and frankly, they bored the shit out of me...

Is that kind of like the infamous "I had jet grades, but..."

 

[Cobra Commander]

As for driving American jobs overseas, until the American worker is as cheap as the ones in Bangladesh, Vietnam, Mexico and elsewhere then jobs are going to move there.

Yeah, but with higher fuel prices that's going to be happening less. Outsourcing is awesome, but it has its limits. This is especially true in newer more automated factories (ie all of them) where your labor savings is minimal and becomes a loss when you factor in shipping costs.

 

[Spekkio]

because obviously, engineers have never fucked anything up, ever.

these kind of statements are full retard, not even close to borderline retard. I wasn't an engineer. I could have been. I chose not to because while I was really effing good at math and science, I didn't enjoy them, and frankly, they bored the shit out of me.
If you get off on thermodynamics or diff eq, great. Don't think you're better because some people don't. I didn't. I picked a major that I enjoyed and I worked my ass off to graduate MCL in it. I'll probably get a masters, and if I can finagle the navy paying for it, a Ph. D. in my field down the road.

I've busted my ass in flight school, and even without being able to bust a nut in my flight suit thinking about bernoulli's or coefficients of lift or drag, I've done pretty damn good for my stupid, liberal arts, went out drinking everynight (yea, coz that happens at military school) self.

end rant. :icon_rage

And what would you be doing if you weren't in the military? Unlike you, I spent a few years working in the corporate world. The average Joe with a liberal arts or "business" degree earns about $30-35k/year coming out of college, which amounts to a whopping $12-15 an hour. Some of these jobs come with benefits; most don't. Most of them do a job that any high school graduate can do, but for some reason the company wants a college grad in the position.

If your bachelor's degree is not in: accounting/finance, nursing, or engineering/architecture, then you're going to have a tough time finding a decent salary w/ benefits.

 

[picklesuit]

And what would you be doing if you weren't in the military? Unlike you, I spent a few years working in the corporate world. The average Joe with a liberal arts or "business" degree earns about $30-35k/year coming out of college, which amounts to a whopping $12-15 an hour. Some of these jobs come with benefits; most don't. Most of them do a job that any high school graduate can do, but for some reason the company wants a college grad in the position.

If your bachelor's degree is not in: accounting/finance, nursing, or engineering/architecture, then you're going to have a tough time finding a decent salary w/ benefits.

I can attest to the validity of this statement. I was an Animal Science major (basically Biology degee for Pre-Veterinary students) who graduated in 2002. Granted the job market was shit back then, but I had lined up a job in QA at a bioresearch lab. My fellow An. Sci. majors were pretty desperate and I was proud of that job. I started at $21,000 a year, with health and 401K matching up to 6%...and I thought that it was a good job. I saw my fellow engineers going to John Deere and starting in the 50's to 60's...:icon_rage

And I thought I had a "hard" major (organic chemistry for 3 semesters anyone?) Even I looked down on Poli. Sci./History/English majors

As you can see I now burn holes in the sky for US of A now...although the job had little to do with my enlisting, it sure didn't hold me back

 

[PropAddict]

Best thing ever was when we had a brief with the Supt (3 star) at USNA where he talked about the new mandate to have 80% of each class be technical majors. . .then a week later Thomas Friedman gave a Boreusall lecture where he said 'humanitites majors are the way to go. Anything technical will be replaced within 10 years by computers and 3rd world folks who will do it cheaper and faster.'

Sweet. . .

 

[scoolbubba]

And what would you be doing if you weren't in the military? Unlike you, I spent a few years working in the corporate world. The average Joe with a liberal arts or "business" degree earns about $30-35k/year coming out of college, which amounts to a whopping $12-15 an hour. Some of these jobs come with benefits; most don't. Most of them do a job that any high school graduate can do, but for some reason the company wants a college grad in the position.

If your bachelor's degree is not in: accounting/finance, nursing, or engineering/architecture, then you're going to have a tough time finding a decent salary w/ benefits.

not really, the old fiance has a job with an aerospace company with a similar degree to mine, and she makes much more than I do. They hire plenty of non-tech people to do things like...talk to other people in a way they can understand, instead of technical jargon.

Like I said, it still wasn't an issue since I knew what I was doing after graduating anyways. If I wasn't in the military, GMATs or LSATs would have been the way to go.

 

[BACONATOR]

not really, the old fiance has a job with an aerospace company with a similar degree to mine, and she makes much more than I do. They hire plenty of non-tech people to do things like...talk to other people in a way they can understand, instead of technical jargon.

Like I said, it still wasn't an issue since I knew what I was doing after graduating anyways. If I wasn't in the military, GMATs or LSATs would have been the way to go.

Um, I hate to break it to you, but engineers aren't pocket-protector wearing geeks.

Any reputable university has plenty of humanities, composition, public speaking and communications courses to round out the engineer to be a viable member of the team. Curricula are focusing now on making the engineer an effective communicator to enhance the engineering process.

So the competitive engineering applicants out there are perfectly effective communicators as well as technical experts and render a middle-man "almost" useless (obviously there is still the administrative side that is not within the scope of an engineer's job).

Without fail, EVERY single poly-sci, psych, or other bullshit major (FTR, these majors are bullshit imho ONLY as undergrad degrees. Obviously graduate degrees open a lot of doors), is either working at a job that does not require a college degree (unless it is just a generic requirement) or is going to grad school to be a lawyer, doctor, etc. EVERY one of them.

This also applies to the pilot majors. Friend of mine is now working in retail clothing and as a dispatcher at the local podunk airport with a degree in aeronautical science.

Justify it if you want, but the engineer with a 2.5GPA got a job 6 months before graduation with boeing at 50K a year plus benefits and the polysci major with a 3.9 is working the frialater. And these are not just random examples, but real people I know.

 

[porw0004]

.. engineers aren't pocket-protector wearing geeks ..

Those are the mathematicians.

 

[Harrier Dude]

They hire plenty of non-tech people to do things like...talk to other people in a way they can understand, instead of technical jargon.

I have PEOPLE SKILLS!!!!!!

 

[Flash]

Without fail, EVERY single poly-sci, psych, or other bullshit major (FTR, these majors are bullshit imho ONLY as undergrad degrees. Obviously graduate degrees open a lot of doors), is either working at a job that does not require a college degree (unless it is just a generic requirement) or is going to grad school to be a lawyer, doctor, etc. EVERY one of them.

And these are not just random examples, but real people I know.

Bogey, the world is a lot bigger than your tiny little slice of it. When you make such sweeping and general statements, you are bound to get them wrong, especially when you use only your own, very limited, experience. And you are dead wrong in this case.

Where I work right now the vast majority of professionals have an undergrad degree in one of those 'bullshit' majors, without a grad degree. And they generally start out here making around $45k. And the funny part, most of them are using their degrees in their every day work. And where I work is not an exception to the rule, there are numerous other places that are looking for people just like that in this area, both in government and in the corporate world.

I have nothing against engineering majors, other than laughing at them when they started talking engineering in the wardroom or when they say that they are better than me because of their degree. We need engineers to make the world go around, as we need humanities and social science majors too. It certainly may be easier for an engineer to get a job in the real world than some humanities and social scinece majors, but plenty of jobs exist out there for them, you just need to know where to look.

So quit talking out of your ass, you are adding little to the debate.

 

[Spekkio]

Flash, I don't deny that someone fresh out of college with a bachelor's in liberal arts can find a good job (good being defined as >$40k per year to start with benefits and advancement opportunity); however, I do contest your assertion that it is the "norm" for someone to do so. You generally need some combination of knowing someone high up and prior experience in order to land such a job, and someone fresh out of college is usually going to be short on both those criteria.

And on the lighter side:

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/07/20/104-unpaid-internships/

not really, the old fiance has a job with an aerospace company with a similar degree to mine, and she makes much more than I do. They hire plenty of non-tech people to do things like...talk to other people in a way they can understand, instead of technical jargon.

Why does someone need a college degree to talk to people?

 

[eddie]

Flash, I don't deny that someone fresh out of college with a bachelor's in liberal arts can find a good job (good being defined as >$40k per year to start with benefits and advancement opportunity); however, I do contest your assertion that it is the "norm" for someone to do so. You generally need some combination of knowing someone high up and prior experience in order to land such a job, and someone fresh out of college is usually going to be short on both those criteria.

And on the lighter side:

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/07/20/104-unpaid-internships/

Doesn't this all vary by region?

Stuff white people like is always fun. Especially while imbibing.