BA B777 short of runway @ LHR

[JIMC5499]

Neither one of those engines were running when the crash happened. The blades were bent from the distortion of the engine casing and the mud being pushed into the intakes. If those engines were putting out any kind of power you would expect to see the blades bent in the opposite direction of their rotation.

In the one picture I don't know if that is fuel or their version of AFFF.

 

[Scoob]

Neither one of those engines were running when the crash happened. The blades were bent from the distortion of the engine casing and the mud being pushed into the intakes. If those engines were putting out any kind of power you would expect to see the blades bent in the opposite direction of their rotation.

devil_dog's pic: lots of mud, blades intact - engine not running.

Scoob's pic: some grass, mud, busted up nacelle, every single blade in 1st stage broken, bent, or missing - engine running.

Pinwheeling occurs more in turbine blades where the metal is operating near it's creep point. Compressor blades relatively cold = catastrophic failure.

 

[Herc_Dude]

Actually, what that picture tells you is that that engine was not running.

Actually, I was just making a joke Scoob ... I'll add a smile next time.

 

[Schnugg]

Remember the air bus that did a demo and flew into the trees on a low pass...in that mishap I believe the autopilot was in an approach mode and did not respond to a waveoff power addition.

Pilots in this case are saying it was not responding to their power increase even thought the throttles were pushed up.

Hopefully this won't shake up the electric jet community too much.

 

[Scoob]

Actually, I was just making a joke Scoob ... I'll add a smile next time.

I got that - wasn't baggin' on you. I just happend to have been looking at the other photo right before I saw your post - so I used it as a segue to show the other one. Then later clarified, as it seems folks are confusing which pic I was talking about.

 

[Single Seat]

Remember the air bus that did a demo and flew into the trees on a low pass...in that mishap I believe the autopilot was in an approach mode and did not respond to a waveoff power addition.

The pilot of that plane did jail time. He tried to over ride the "Natural Law" logic of the computers, and just fly it stick and rudder, which you can't do in a bus. You're not really a pilot, just a voting member. You make suggestions as to what you WANT to do, and the jet figures out if you can/how to do it. I digress.

He basically screwed up the control mode he was in, tried to do one thing, jet interpreted it as another, you know the end.

Funny how with all the electric jets running around the world from both Boeing and Airbus, how safe things are. Amazing when you operate it the way it was supposed to be!

As 'fer the triple seven crew, it'll be interesting to see the out come. 777 has been flying for over a decade, and this is the first instance of a control malfunction? Somethin's fishy...

 

[millerjd]

Initial report from AAIB from the FDR download

[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva][FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva][FONT=ARIAL,]"At approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond. Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BigIron]

Are we talking about Air France 296?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

 

[Catmando]

The pilot of that plane did jail time. He tried to over ride the "Natural Law" logic of the computers, and just fly it stick and rudder, which you can't do in a bus. You're not really a pilot, just a voting member. You make suggestions as to what you WANT to do, and the jet figures out if you can/how to do it.....

Actually, a majority of Airbus landings are indeed done with "stick and rudder" and with the autopilot off. (although the auto-throttle is usually left engaged, but not necessarily always, i.e. pilots will sometimes use manual throttle in gusty winds. And the auto-throttle may easily be overridden at any time.)

Despite the Captains's conviction, the true cause of Air France 296 has long been in dispute (primarily because of alleged FDR tampering). But it bears no resemblance to what may have happened in this instance with BA's B777. Also, Boeings' and Airbus's systems vary greatly.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Single Seat- How much Airbus time do you have? I just had an A-310 landing yesterday and the autopilot was off and it did every stick and rudder input, I gave it, as advertised.

Quick sytems lesson: Airbus autothrottles have a feature called Alpha floor..
Protection is active with ATS lever(s) armed and RA>100
When the Flight Augmentation Computer detects too high an angle of attack, it commands the throttles to max power. Autothrottles can be disengaged but must be armed.

The version I have been told by our Training Department, which they were given from Airbus, is that during the airshow, the pilot was going to demo the above protection but dumbass was too low. (ie Below 100ft.)

 

[Uncle Fester]

I mighta missed something from the news reports, but is there any speculation this might have been windshear?

 

[Single Seat]

Boom boom/Catmando, I don't mean to insinuate that you aren't actually flying the thing. My old man is one of the bus line check capts at one of the majors and explained that crash to me as the pilot not fully understanding WTF he was doing we he tried to command everything off and fly a low dirty pass. Computer did it's thing, he was trying to do another, etc. My time in the bus is <25 hours. I got tired of it calling me a retard.

The auto throttles commanding more thrust, and not getting it, that would happen when the engines flame out. No post crash fire? Crash site not foamed down? Only speculating through observation. That and the British Airways pilot that was on Fox News adamantly saying that BA pilots don't make mistakes

 

[FrankTheTank]

Not offended or anything like that... But most don't seem to understand the automation.. Those with and without experience... The Navy was much better at ensuring pilots KNOW THEIR A/C SYSTEMS.. Not necessarily the case for Airline Line Pilots.. The saying goes something to the effect "That the longer you have been on the jet, the less you know." Your best systems knowledge is on the day of your orals cause the cram sessions during recurrent or prior to a line check are just that.. Memorize and dump.. Just like Flight School

Also folks want to get in a pissing war of Bus versus Boeing.. And I say, as long as it pays the bills, Who cares.. And if I am a passenger, all I want is comfort and safety.. That is why I am anti-RJ but that is another topic..

Fly Safe

 

[Single Seat]

Not offended or anything like that... But most don't seem to understand the automation.. Those with and without experience... The Navy was much better at ensuring pilots KNOW THEIR A/C SYSTEMS.. Not necessarily the case for Airline Line Pilots.. The saying goes something to the effect "That the longer you have been on the jet, the less you know." Your best systems knowledge is on the day of your orals cause the cram sessions during recurrent or prior to a line check are just that.. Memorize and dump.. Just like Flight School

Also folks want to get in a pissing war of Bus versus Boeing.. And I say, as long as it pays the bills, Who cares.. And if I am a passenger, all I want is comfort and safety.. That is why I am anti-RJ but that is another topic..

Fly Safe

Not sending donations to the RJDC?

Maybe someone used their cell phone on the 777.

 

[Uncle Fester]

So, windshear? Anyone? I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on the gigantic aeroplanes, but there ain't many things that make them suddenly and mysteriously stop flying. A low-level inversion would be one of them.