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B-2 Designer On Trial For Spying

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
Flash: isn't that a good way to get double f*cked by the spy? Also, I thought those trials could be done with a gag order to keep info secret. And, doesn't any decent intelligence agency insulate themselves through several layers from the traitor to prevent a double agent? I appreciate your perspective but you haven't convinced me 100%. Also, can't forensics pretty much figure out what info was given out? Once the spy is caught, I feel like he holds very few cards anymore.

But anyways, whether or not it is better to make a deal to get more information (or get played twice) is only part of the issue. Even if our nation was better served by executing the spy, I doubt most people in the country would support that.
 

jamnww

Hangar Four
pilot
yeah and the religious folk think God, not our Government, should be the only one with the power to send him there.

Not anywhere close to being true...I know MANY MANY very religious folk who support the death penalty...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash: isn't that a good way to get double f*cked by the spy?

The plea agreements usually carry clauses that invalidate the agreement if the spy does not cooperate.

Also, I thought those trials could be done with a gag order to keep info secret.

Secret from the public, to protect classified information. Not secret from the government or the prosecutors.

And, doesn't any decent intelligence agency insulate themselves through several layers from the traitor to prevent a double agent?

There are a variety of ways that foreign intelligence agents protect and insulate themsleves from capture or exposure. But a lot of those means are technical and rely on technique, like dead drops and emails. Relying on people, especially several, can greatly increase an agents risk to exposure. I believe that was how the Rosenburgs got caught. Plus, many first rate agencies still rely on people who are under official cover, embassy personnel who have diplomatic immunity. Most of the time spycraft is very simple, why add complexity to an already complicated situation? KISS.

I appreciate your perspective but you haven't convinced me 100%. Also, can't forensics pretty much figure out what info was given out?

I have access to reams of data in my current job. Unless they monitor a spy from the beginning or were able to compromise the opposing agency, you have to assume everything the guy dealt with was compromised. That is a lot of data, input from the spy then becomes very important. One disadvantage is that US intel agencies share a lot of data with a lot of people, in intelligence. Meaning, I have access to a lot of stuff that is not really necessary for my job. That makes the US and some of our allies more vunerable to compromising a large mount of data, but it makes my every day job a lot easier, and makes our intelligence agencies a lot more effective. It is a double edged sword but one that I am more than willing to live with. It is part of a cost of a free society. I know of several examples in Vietnam where vital information was withheld from US aviators that could have saved their lives. It was stuff that everyone assumed we were doing anyways but some still played 'I have a secret'. There are some hard decisions that have to be made like that sometimes, think Churchill and Coventry, but we had gone overboard for years.

Don't think we give spys an easy ride though, some of the tactics the government uses against these guys are downright mean, though certainly justified. Cooperate and the options are a lot better for a spy, just a long jail sentence becomes an incentive for these guys.

Once the spy is caught, I feel like he holds very few cards anymore.

They do, to a degree. Stroke their ego a little and you will be suprised what some will give up. Spy: "Look at how brilliant I was, I fooled you for so long!" FBI Agent: "Man, you are right! We had no idea that you were doing this, you really pulled the wool over our eyes on this one. Even when we suspected it might be someone in your office you were able to deflect our suspicions of you. Wow, how did you do all of that?" The art of interrogation, it is a beautiful thing sometimes......;)

But anyways, whether or not it is better to make a deal to get more information (or get played twice) is only part of the issue. Even if our nation was better served by executing the spy, I doubt most people in the country would support that.

I have no problem, and I believe most Americans feel the same, with executing a spy who has cost American lives, especially in wartime. Sometimes we have to make the hard decision and let that person live....cough....Walker.....cough....but that is a decision that I trust the prosecutors to make.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Damn, you guys have a one track mind...just to keep the discussion moving...lets stipulate (I believe correctly) that there are many people who do not support the death penalty who are not religious...or at least not Christian.:D

Game on...
 

badger16

Well-Known Member
None
Not anywhere close to being true...I know MANY MANY very religious folk who support the death penalty...


I didn't mean everybody... I guess should have put a lot, or majority of people i've talked to but I thought people would understand that I was not speaking for everyone in the religious world, just speaking in generals.
 

badger16

Well-Known Member
None
I don't want to get in a religious debate with anybody on here...as I said before i'm not that religious...I was just saying that some people don't agree with the death penalty and it has nothing to do with whether they are patriotic or not...religion was just an example of SOME (better jamnww? :D) of those people who feel that this guy should live.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
this may be a little off subject (now)... but both the B-2 and the F-117 were retired.

You may wanna check your data on that. Both are still currently flying. The Air Force has just started spooling down the 117 support so that it can be retired on their current timeline which is supposed to be 2008. The B-2.... dude that thing will probably still be in inventory when My kids are old enough to join.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Not everyone who believes in the bible is Roman Catholic.

It's a joke, work with me here. ;) WRT spy cases, what Flash said. Sounds like Hollywood has gotten the better of you.

Brett
 

sundevil_av8r

Member
pilot
Edit: are in the process of being retired.

I read an article in our local newspaper that the B-2 was planned to be put into the boneyard (but still able to return to service) at davis montham because it was too expensive to operate and there wasn't really a need.

It might have just been speculation but I will try to find some more information.
 

Tex_Hill

Airborne All the Way!!!
Edit: are in the process of being retired.

I read an article in our local newspaper that the B-2 was planned to be put into the boneyard (but still able to return to service) at davis montham because it was too expensive to operate and there wasn't really a need.

It might have just been speculation but I will try to find some more information.

From October's issue of Air force Magazine:
Here to Eternity?
The B-1, B-2, and B-52 will be around for a long time. Previous service life estimates postulated that the B-1 airframes could remain in service until 2038; the B-2s until approximately 2040; and the B-52s until 2044.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Oct2006/10062018.asp
 

sundevil_av8r

Member
pilot
i've seen all of that service life info too. those numbers are just when the airframe is estimated to last. obviously the f-117's are not being retired because their airframes are not airworthy. an aircraft can be retired before it's "service life" expires. the article i read was probably inaccurate... but it simply said that there was no justification for spending the billions of dollars on the b-2 when there wasn't a need, and that it was planned to be put in davis montham's boneyard. may not be true...
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
i've seen all of that service life info too. those numbers are just when the airframe is estimated to last. obviously the f-117's are not being retired because their airframes are not airworthy. an aircraft can be retired before it's "service life" expires. the article i read was probably inaccurate... but it simply said that there was no justification for spending the billions of dollars on the b-2 when there wasn't a need, and that it was planned to be put in davis montham's boneyard. may not be true...


Sounds like the same kind of reporters that say we dont need a Marine Corps because we havent excecuted a major amphib landing under fire since Korea. I think the main point people want to complain about the B-2 is that there is no infastructure in place to deploy them so they are pretty much stuck at Whiteman AFB. The 117 going away is a good idea from what Ive seen. All the non-classified stuff thats been put out for the public to see states that the Raptor and the Lightning II will have better penetration ability then the Nighthawk, and since there are only 53 Nighthawks in service it just doesnt make sense to maintain them since they are a one trick pony.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
i've seen all of that service life info too. those numbers are just when the airframe is estimated to last. obviously the f-117's are not being retired because their airframes are not airworthy. an aircraft can be retired before it's "service life" expires. the article i read was probably inaccurate... but it simply said that there was no justification for spending the billions of dollars on the b-2 when there wasn't a need, and that it was planned to be put in davis montham's boneyard. may not be true...

Dont' believe everything you read. The B-2s aren't going anywhere - end of story.

Brett
 
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