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Attn: El Homo's. El Presidente (aka CIC) says you're now SAT.

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desertoasis

Something witty.
None
Contributor
...President Obama is waiting for Congress to take action on this issue. Unfortunately for him, his interest group is impatient.

Two things:

1. The President is waiting for Congress because he is constitutionally bound to, and also, like Brett and Bevo have both said to varying degrees of vitriol, because there are many many more things on the President's plate. The President does not have the power to legislate, or really even to influence legislation (though every President does anyway, for better or worse), he only has the power to enforce and execute legislation that Congress passes. The Framers made the Presidency relatively weak on purpose, so that Congress would always have the power to create laws and not the President. I think that's why they called those two branches the 'Legislative' and the 'Executive' branches, respectively. Just a thought.

2. Interest groups are always impatient. This is nothing new. Why would you bring it up as a jab towards the President, when it's clearly no fault of his? The gun lobby is always impatient when it comes to gun law issues (DC v. Heller and so on), the abortion lobby (and the anti-abortion lobby as well) is always impatient when it comes to abortion issues, and...wait for it...the gay lobby is impatient when it comes to gay issues as well! The political process is slow and deliberate, as it should be, and too many lobby groups want action NOW and decisions made NOW and everything to be done NOW NOW NOW. Trouble is, rash decisions made at the heels of a frenzied public create problems in the long run and don't always reflect the real views of the people, so the process is designed (ideally) to be very slow and plodding, so that nothing is done in a blaze of emotion or passion, and every side of the discussion is adequately heard.

Probably off on a bit of a tangent, but just my $.02.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Okay, here is my response (because we all have to say something stupid, right?):

I want an end of DADT and to (re)establish a ban on homosexuals in the military. I (personally) disagree with homosexuality, and it makes it hard to work when the person next to me is gay. It was that way when I was in Food Service in college, and when I worked in Colorado as a trail guide; both instances in which I had to work directly with an openly homosexual male.

My coworkers were also uncomfortable working with an openly gay man, and it made it hard for that gay man to work, period. I'd like to be an idealist and think that by allowing gays to wok with us, openly, we would magically "get used to it" and "follow orders," but that is not reality.

The Israeli Army, having problems: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106488.html

Australian Navy: (Sub guys, go figure) http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1158212.htm

I think this would be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg here in America. Like I said, this is my personal opinion, not meant to be representative of any other people in the service...

Pickle
 

desertoasis

Something witty.
None
Contributor
Let's see, Brett shoots off a "shut the f*** up" to me and I'm the mouthing off?

Brett327
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NUW
Posts: 6,299
Rep Power: 155

greatbridge
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 0
Rep Power: 0


See a bit of a difference there? ;)
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Let's see, Brett shoots off a "shut the f*** up" to me and I'm the mouthing off?

As far as politics goes, what do you think DADT is all about?

Well, since you're Johhny come lately around here, that's kind of the way it goes.

Brett
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The Israeli Army, having problems: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106488.html

Australian Navy: (Sub guys, go figure) http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1158212.htm

I think this would be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg here in America.....

Only a tiny handful of examples that are similar to the issues that we frequently deal with anyways. The main point, it does not appear to have any effect on the effectiveness of their combat forces as they have proven in ongoing combat operations.
 

Clux4

Banned
STFU must be a reflex response when one doesn't like a post?

Thanks for the suggestion but I have a pretty good understanding of politics. Of course, that's why DADT is currently an issue. President Obama is struggling to please anyone. He's getting heat from just about everyone.

A "tell 'em what they want to hear" speech to a friendly audience was a safe play and may buy him some time with the gay community.

The funny thing is this, DADT policy was not widely accepted when Clinton made it the policy. So what we consider an perfect solution to the problem was once controversial. If you intend on joining the military, be rest assured that you will serve with them. If you do not plan on joining, good for you. But I think CHANGE is in fact on the way.
 
Two things:

1. The President is waiting for Congress because he is constitutionally bound to, and also, like Brett and Bevo have both said to varying degrees of vitriol, because there are many many more things on the President's plate. The President does not have the power to legislate, or really even to influence legislation (though every President does anyway, for better or worse), he only has the power to enforce and execute legislation that Congress passes. The Framers made the Presidency relatively weak on purpose, so that Congress would always have the power to create laws. I think that's why they called those two branches the 'Legislative' and the 'Executive' branches, respectively. Just a thought.

2. Interest groups are always impatient. This is nothing new. Why would you bring it up as a jab towards the President, when it's clearly no fault of his? The gun lobby is always impatient when it comes to gun law issues (DC v. Heller and so on), the abortion lobby (and the anti-abortion lobby as well) is always impatient when it comes to abortion issues, and...wait for it...the gay lobby is impatient when it comes to gay issues as well! The political process is slow and deliberate, as it should be, and too many lobby groups want action NOW and decisions made NOW and everything to be done NOW NOW NOW. Trouble is, rash decisions made at the heels of a frenzied public create problems in the long run and don't always reflect the real views of the people, so the process is designed (ideally) to be very slow and plodding, so that nothing is done in a blaze of emotion or passion, and every side of the discussion is adequately heard.

Probably off on a bit of a tangent, but just my $.02.

Thanks for the civics lesson. BTW, the executive branch is just as weak as the legislative branch (and the judicial branch for that matter). Also, there is a current thought that we have a pseudo 4th branch of government due to the size of government - Agency Bureau Branch.

To paint President Obama's involvement as arms length and just a spectator is intellectually dishonest.

He's the guy who made promises to the gay community. With friendly supermajorities in the house and senate, along with occupying the white house, why isn't this issue put to rest quickly?
 
Brett327
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NUW
Posts: 6,299
Rep Power: 155

greatbridge
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 0
Rep Power: 0


See a bit of a difference there? ;)


How often you post and the longer one has posted is more important than the content of your arguement.

Yep, got it. Must be a seniority thing.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
How often you post and the longer one has posted is more important than the content of your arguement.

Yep, got it. Must be a seniority thing.

My advice FNG:
Call it a night...

wrong.jpg
 

Clux4

Banned
Okay, here is my response (because we all have to say something stupid, right?):

I want an end of DADT and to (re)establish a ban on homosexuals in the military. I (personally) disagree with homosexuality, and it makes it hard to work when the person next to me is gay. It was that way when I was in Food Service in college, and when I worked in Colorado as a trail guide; both instances in which I had to work directly with an openly homosexual male.

My coworkers were also uncomfortable working with an openly gay man, and it made it hard for that gay man to work, period. I'd like to be an idealist and think that by allowing gays to wok with us, openly, we would magically "get used to it" and "follow orders," but that is not reality.
Pickle

Your knowledge of these individuals being gay is what is causing the problem and not the fact that they are gay. Do you remember the case of the Airforce LtCol. Does the fact that your co-pilot is gay make you not able to fly the aircraft properly? Well, that is if you knew about it.
So in essence, their performance is not the issue.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor

Problems = Head Rabbi pissed about too much attention given to gays in the Army magazine, a soldier posting threats on an internet forum, and the shocking revelation that discrimination against gays has risen.....after they were allowed in (or to come out).

That's positively crippling.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
How often you post and the longer one has posted is more important than the content of your arguement.

Yep, got it. Must be a seniority thing.

No, and I certainly welcome you and your participation to this site, but it matters when people start whining about who gets to say STFU to whom. In that sense, it is a seniority thing. Now that you know the rules of the internets, proceed with the chlorophyll. :D

Brett
 

desertoasis

Something witty.
None
Contributor
Thanks for the civics lesson. BTW, the executive branch is just as weak as the legislative branch (and the judicial branch for that matter). Also, there is a current thought that we have a pseudo 4th branch of government due to the size of government - Agency Bureau Branch.

To paint President Obama's involvement as arms length and just a spectator is intellectually dishonest.

He's the guy who made promises to the gay community. With friendly supermajorities in the house and senate, along with occupying the white house, why isn't this issue put to rest quickly?

In Federalist No. 51, Madison said that it's fundamentally impossible for the three branches to be equal, or for each branch to be able to check another branch with equal effectiveness. "In Republican government, the legislative branch necessarily predominates." It still holds true today, because no other branch can CREATE laws the way the legislation can. The Judicial is trying to overstep its bounds with judicial activism, and the president is trying to overstep HIS bounds with legislative executive orders, but in the end, the power of the government rests in Congress. You're right that in an ideal world, the three branches should be equally weak (or equally strong, if you want to look at it that way), but it's just not possible the way our government was designed.

The President, making speeches to the gay community as a candidate, and now as President, should really be looked upon as the leader of his political party, because that's the hat he's wearing when he makes those speeches, even though nobody really differentiates between the two hats anymore. He invariably talks about asking Congress to pass laws and appropriate funds and whatnot; things that he technically can't do as President, but as leader of the Democratic Party, you bet he can. So when I say that the President has no power to legislate, but he does anyways, that how he goes about doing it. It's a bit of a backdoor [no pun intended] way of getting your message to Congress, but it seems to have become the norm in the last century.

Far as the Agency Bureau Branch is concerned, not really sure where you got that term, but if you're referring to independent governmental agencies like the CIA, EPA, FEC, FCC, GSA, NASA, NARA, NSF, OPM, SSS, SSA, FERT, and pretty much any other three-letter or four-letter acronym you can imagine, yeah you're absolutely right that they do exert far more influence over all three Constitutionally outlined branches than they ought to, but that has more to do with the overweight nature of the government, and the inability of groups with lots of power to relinquish that power, and less to do with the ability of the President and Congress to legislate and enforce.

Also, if you think those supermajorities in Congress are friendly with the President....read what they're saying about each other to the media. The only thing worse than an perfectly evenly-split House or Senate is one with a supermajority; they have unchecked power, so they spend all their time arguing particulars, trying to get their once-in-a-lifetime agendas passed, attaching riders to every bill that breathes, and as a result never get anything substantial done. It's why this health care thing hasn't passed, its why DADT is still being debated on the steps of the Capitol instead of in the chambers of the House and Senate. Too bad for us Average Joes out here who have to wait and watch on C-SPAN.

Someone tell me if my posts are turning too long a la Random8145...I'll trim the fat off of 'em... :D
 
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