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Army Aviation?

MrFreakinKite

New Member
I was getting out of my car the other day when an Apache flew over my head. I thought "Man, that would be pretty cool!"

I'm currently a senior in high school looking to start ROTC next year. I've always wanted to be a Naval Aviator, but if I get a 4-yr Army ROTC scholarship and not a 4-yr NROTC scholarship, should I take the Army one? The only thing I know about officers in Army Aviation is what goarmy.com has to say (which is jack sh!t):

The responsibilities of an Aviation Lieutenant may include:
  • Coordinate employment of Aviation Soldiers and aircraft at all levels, from platoon to battalion and higher, in U.S. and multi-national operations.
  • Provide Aviation coordination
  • Instruct Aviation skills at service schools and combat training centers
It doesn't sound like they do much flying as opposed to commanding. Does anybody know more about this?
 

2ndGen

Third times a charm
The one thing about Army flying that I know for sure is that a large majority of pilots in the Army are not Officers, they are Warrent Officers, which means something different from Army ROTC.

If I'm wrong I will be shiftly and brutally corrected.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
The bulk of Army flying is done by Warrant Officers. Not the ROTC 2LTs.

SOME Commissioned O's do fly in the Army, but they don't fly much past O-3.

We have a few Army WOs on here to chime in.

In the Navy, 95%+ of the Naval Aviators are commissioned O's (we have a few flying Warrants, but only in a few aircraft types). So we do the bulk of the flying.
 

BlackBearHockey

go blue...
but if I get a 4-yr Army ROTC scholarship and not a 4-yr NROTC scholarship, should I take the Army one?

If you want to be in the Army. If you get decent grades you have a very good chance at picking up a 3/3.5 year scholarship. If one or two semesters of paying your way are enough to dissuade you from being in the Navy, then I guess that's your answer.

From my Army ROTC friends, I hear that aviation and the aviation defense (or something) are very difficult to pick up because of the amount of people who want it, and the amount of flying billets there are (see 2ndGen's post).
 

teabag53

Registered User
pilot
If flying is your main objective try googling Army Warrant Officer programs. This may save you some time and help direct your follow-on education.
 

LazersGoPEWPEW

4500rpm
Contributor
I used to be in Army ROTC and I know how the accessions process works to get Aviation and it's kinda jacked up. To be quite honest it shouldn't be exceedingly difficult to pick up an Army ROTC scholarship. They offered me two separate scholarships at two different times and I turned them down. If I recall correctly Aviation is the top branch to go to. You have to assess the branch and the process is pretty gooped up. It is based much on your GPA, how well you do at LDAC, APFT scores, volunteer work, your participation in ROTC events, ROTC GPA, yellow and blue cards, etc.

Essentially if you keep a high GPA 3.5+ and you score a 270 on your APFT and do well at LDAC you probably stand a good chance of selecting aviation. Oh and you need to take the Army flight test.

My experience in AROTC was not pleasurable. There were some real outstanding guys there but there were a fair share of the opposite. But that's life in general. Think hard about what you want to do because the Army and Navy are two VERY different services.

Edit: Read Chickenhawk. It's a great book about an Army Huey pilot in Vietnam.

If you don't want to be an Ordnance officer or an Signal Corps officer or you don't want to drive tanks then you might want to reconsider taking a scholarship because it will pay for your school. If you don't get the NROTC scholarship the first go around I suggest doing well in your first year and apply for BDCP. I rolled the dice and gambled on myself getting into BDCP while at the same time declining a guaranteed scholarship from the Army.

Oh and in Army ROTC you ARE NOT guaranteed Active duty. I had a friend devastated when he got National Guard.

You could end up in three of the following

AD, Reserve, NG

If you're interested in the Army and you want to go Guard I think you'd be well advised to question your local AROTC unit about the SMP program.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Im a Warrant Officer. I have a bachelors degree which is not a required item but it sure does help. My field is made up mostly of prior enlisted with about 15-25% of us being "street to seat aviators" who go to WOCS right out of basic. My job as an Army Aviator is to be a technical expert and spend most of my time flying. I dont pull staff jobs at the Battalion Level. I may spend a year or two of my career in a CAT III status where Im not getting flight or simulator hours. All and all Im a pilot, its what I do.

Then you have commission officers. They are the leaders and commanders. Here are some of the pitfalls of trying to be a pilot.

1. You do not know your going aviation until you commission and branch. Also with aviation being currently overstrength its getting harder to branch it. This means you could work your ass off and end up a transportation officer just by needs of the Army so thats something to think about.

2. There is an expected preception that your not going to fly much. This has been changing a little with some of the changes General Cody (Apache Pilot) put in place during his tenure. The one big change was that all Commanders (IE Captains and above) have to maintain a Pilot in Command Status. There are senior warrants and commissioned aviators who still to this day dont consider RLO's to have any buisness being pilots in command. There are Battalion level CO's out there with 17-20 years in Army Aviation and less than 1000 hours. You may spend some of your time flying in your career but your primary job will be as a Plt commander from day one. After that your more worried about checking all your boxes for promotion than you are about getting flight hours. Your OER wont be written off your ability as an aviator but how you ran the S3 shop and contributed towards your units readiness.

3. While you may be PC because of requirements in place you will most like never be an Air Mission Commander. Positions like Standards Pilot (IP on steroids) or AMO's are things you see top stick senior Warrants doing.


Im not saying you cant be an Army Aviator and a RLO at the same time, but if you are getting in because you want to fly than your looking into it the wrong way. That being said though both WOCS and ROTC slots are getting very very hard to come by as we retighten our belt. So gotta factor in that you might not get another chance if you pass something up looking to better deal it.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
There are Battalion level CO's out there with 17-20 years in Army Aviation and less than 1000 hours...

I've heard this before, but it still blows my mind. Hell, I've got over 1000 total hours and I'm just some asshole O-3 who's been out of the cockpit since I left my Fleet squadron. You want to know the big difference between Army and Naval Aviation, this is probably it. While the amount of flying you do certainly declines as you progress up the ladder, you're still expected to fly. Your flying days aren't really considered over until you put on stars; the squadron skippers and CAGs are expected to fly, and fly a lot.
 

torpedo0126

Member
i have a friend who just got commissioned as an Army 2Lt and got a aviation slot. PM me if you want more info and I will ask him.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
I've heard this before, but it still blows my mind. Hell, I've got over 1000 total hours and I'm just some asshole O-3 who's been out of the cockpit since I left my Fleet squadron. You want to know the big difference between Army and Naval Aviation, this is probably it. While the amount of flying you do certainly declines as you progress up the ladder, you're still expected to fly. Your flying days aren't really considered over until you put on stars; the squadron skippers and CAGs are expected to fly, and fly a lot.

Its not a rule but its not unheard of either. Our one Cadre used an example of the two different Battalion CO's he had in Iraq. One was a multiple thousand hour aviator who was very effective at the combat aspects of his job but somehow got himself sent home. The follow on guy was a 760+ hour Lt Col who had no idea what he was doing besides the staff side of the job. This was in an Attack Battalion.

Another systemic problem has been the overabundance of JO's floating around especially in the 47 community. They have gone so far as to wave the minimum hours required to maintain aviation status for 47 pilots because they are around 300% over strength. So when you've got 6-7 Lt's in a Troop that only needs 2 of them... yeah kinda sucks the hours out of the part of your career your supposed to be doing most of your flying. Then you get a staff job and have what little hope and faith left in you beaten out with a stick.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I still wonder at how a CO can have any credibility as low man on flight hours. The nice thing about USMC/USN is that for the most part the CO is one of the most experienced aviators in the unit. I cant see how a 500 hours guy can lead a flight of 2 let alone 4. At 500 hours one is still learning their own a/c not how to employ tactical formations.
I learned the hard way in Iraq when working with some Army units to ignore the LTs and talk to the CWOs about anything important.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
I still wonder at how a CO can have any credibility as low man on flight hours. The nice thing about USMC/USN is that for the most part the CO is one of the most experienced aviators in the unit. I cant see how a 500 hours guy can lead a flight of 2 let alone 4. At 500 hours one is still learning their own a/c not how to employ tactical formations.
I learned the hard way in Iraq when working with some Army units to ignore the LTs and talk to the CWOs about anything important.

Every flight will have an Air Mission Commander. That guy probably wont be an RLO, he may not even be the highest ranking Warrant. Once everybody pulls collective though, leave your rank on the ground he is in charge. I think the real reason for this is the emphasis on what is important for you to be doing dependent on which side your on. We got a great brief on how to be a success in your first unit from a very senior and seasoned CW4. For the Lt's its like go get your PC and your RL1 and then start making a steller OER. Find a mentor who can teach you the ropes of your staff duties. Then you go to the Warrants and its get your PC, then work towards Flight Lead, and if your hot shit start on one of the 4 tracks early. Go bug the maint test pilots about being a co-pilot to help build hours .1 and .2 at a time. Other than flying the only thing that ever got mentioned was help out with the little bullshit duties around the troop/company like stocking the fridge and taking out the trash so they see your a team player. That and remember Lt's outrank you even when you make CW5 so your supposed to Salute them...
 

Birdog8585

Milk and Honey
pilot
Contributor
FLY MARINES. Dilemma Solved. Apache eat your heart out.

200609bell-AH-1Z.jpg
 

russ651

Registered User
None
I'm not Paul Harvey, but there is a rest of the story to some of the above posts. If you're a commissioned officer the potential is there to fly alot and kill people in the process. You need timing and you need to be proactive in the process. My last squadron commander had over 4000 hours and still had the itch. My last troop commander was a not very senior CPT and had around 2000. I'm not saying everyone will reap that kind of bounty, but it can be done. In the army, we fly helicopters alot and kill people alot. We just don't get to fish off the backs of our big ships. If you enjoy Tigris trout, we have immediate openings available. Contact your recruiter.
 

hokieav8r

~Bring the Wood!~
None
I was a commissioned officer until 1 FEB 2009. I served in two different units, I was platoon leader for 28 months in the first unit, a staff officer in logistics, staff officer in operations, and a company commander in the 2nd unit over an 8 1/2 year period. During that time, I attained Pilot in Command in the AH-64D due to my proficiency in the aircraft as a dual seat pilot. I was expected to exhibit good sound judgement and maturity while piloting the aircraft. Judgement and Maturity is what they are looking for in any aviator. Yes, Warrant Officers in the Army, especially aviation, are considered the voice, being technical and tactical experts at their craft. That does not excuse commissioned officers from exhibiting the same skills and judgement while in the aircraft, but unfortunately the Army places a big expectation on the commissioned officers to be a "jack of all trades" officer, acquiring responsibilities, all the other responsibilities besides flying. Yes, Warrant Officers are highly skilled, highly professional pilots, but that is what they are most proud of, and what they most like doing. The exceptional Warrant Officers do hold other responsibilities and other duties, and they do pull Staff Jobs. They do it when the Army best feels that they are fit to do so, when they are at the 10-15 year mark and have progressed to a level of professionalism and maturity beyond just in the aircraft and on the battlefield. I highly respected my Warrant Officers, and they respected me. I was a leader and proud and honored to have served in tense, hostile, and downright "not knowing you were going to make it" situations with them. I was a pilot in command, and I was an air mission commander in combat. Those are the two things in Army aviation I am most proud of. My close 2nd proudest job was being a company commander in an Attack Company. There is no better community, but all airframes and all missions are an absolute necessity on the battlefield and all of them are highly respected by all of those other soldiers around you, of whom you support. It is slightly luck and a gamble to try and guarantee Aviation out of ROTC. Nothing is guaranteed. There are many ways to try to increase your chances. Doing well in school with a good GPA and doing extremely well at Advanced Camp (LDAC) and on the AFAST (Army Flight Aptitude Selection Test) will never hurt your chances. If you want good jobs in the army as a commissioned officer that involve flying, you simply have to be the best at those jobs. If you are an average aviator, you will not be respected in the aircraft by the Warrant Officers that you went through flight school with side by side, and you will find yourself moving away from the cockpit earlier in your career. If you are good, humble, and exhibit good judgement and maturity, then you will be highly respected and damn near requested by name to be a leader, commander, pilot in command, and air mission commander due to your abilities and sound judgement. General Cody a 4 star general who retired out of the Army after his final job as Vice Chief of Staff, was also the 101st Division Commander, worked closely with 160th SOAR (Special Ops Aviation Regiment), was the 101st Aviation Brigade Commander and commanded at every level. His vision was that of the Navy in respect to, how can a pilot be commanded by a commander that isn't expected to maintain the same standards in flying as his fellow Warrant Officer. His thought process, in my interpretation, led to the first change to the Army Aviation Regulation in a long time. The regulation, AR 95-1 was changed to read that any Officer put in command, in order to maintain their position as commander, will be a pilot in command. In addition to that reg, it places a 180 day limit on this progression to PIC. It also states, that in order to be an Air Mission Commander, you must be a PIC and in order to be a Mission Briefer, you must be a PIC. There are a lot of responsibilities and a lot of duties that hinge on being a pilot in command, which means being a good pilot. Due to the operational tempo of the Army, below average commissioned officers as pilots make their way into command positions. This is where the timing comes into play. It is due to "officer being at the right place at the right time." Bottom line, you have to prove yourself, you have to do well, and you have to never fail as you progress through flight school through every job and maintain you proficiency as a pilot and also balance your duties and responsibilities beyond the cockpit. It is not easy, and it is not always fun. But the 10-15% and the 40% during combat, of your time spent flying the Ferrari of the helicopter realm, the Longbow Apache, is the best you'll ever spend flying Helicopters. Being a Warrant Officer flying any aircraft in the Army is a great job as well and I would urge you to look at all your options. I had a great career flying Apaches, and hope to fly them again someday when all of the Guard units become outfitted with AH-64D apaches. Until then, I have transitioned out of the Army and become a Federal Agent, flying for CBP Air and Marine. I left the Army with 1800 hours, and have also flown fixed wing on my dime, getting my Private Airplane Single Engine Land rating and will add it to my Commercial ticket along with my Rotarywing w/instrument that I received on Uncle Sam's dime. Best of luck in what you decide to do. Feel free to send follow on questions.
 
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