Are stories of the SWO community valid?

[CAMike]

Rather than address folks and their posts specifically I'd like to share the following:

GENERALLY you might be statistically correct in saying that SWO communities are rough on thier own. That said- we all work for the same company and we all live in the 21st century correct? I submit- if Al Gore's dad invented the internet in the 1940's- the posts back then would have been equally harsh or worse concerning SWO life.

When you see a DH or higher dining on a JO for strictly entertainment purposes- you as a officer and leader have an implied responsibility to take that person aside and inquire about their publically demonstrated management skills. Before you call BS, consider this- if Aviators, Suppos etc. continue to stand by generation after generation and type posts that say the same old things about SWO life year after year, where does the Navy end up? Same old place- different decade.

I'm NOT recommending calling out your XO (unfortunately I did as a JO - bad outcome/bad judgement call on my part), but If you're even close in rank to the offender you would be doing many others in our future Naval service a favor by intelligently challenging thier methods and possibly recommending other proven ways to manage others. Little JO's quickly become DH's and DH's quickly become.... well you get the point. The CO's just 15 years from now are "Ensigns".

Food for thought.

So when are we going to see some posts here from Aviators who want to share thier success stories related to improving life for the young and abused SWOJO's? You do end up on boats from time to time- correct?

I love you guys- Rant off.

 

[MasterBates]

Problem is.. When most of us pilots are seeing this stupidity on the small boys, (talking from a HSL Det standpoint) it's as a JG or junior LT.. And the said architect of stupidity is nominally a senior LT, LCDR or CDR.

When I would be in the LSO shack and they would MAKE something MY problem (and if it's affecting launch or recovery, it had become MY problem) I would deal with them. Aside from that.. I just sat back an watched.

After asking one SWO LT "hey man why are you such a dick to ENS Z" in slightly nicer words, and getting an hour long ass chewing.. Fuckem.. Their problem.. In aviation.. I could, as a winged RAG complete ENS speak my mind to any LT in the squadron as long as it was not in front of everyone if it was stupid.

I learned quickly that SWO LTs veiw ENSs, even those with wings, as subhumans. It's just how it it is.

 

[Flash]

The SWO life and the general acknowledgment of self-inflicted pain has even garnered the attention of Proceedings, they devoted an entire issue to SWO-dom this spring and most of the articles were critical in one way or the other of SWO-dom and especially it's training. SOP to a degree for Proceedings, but some of the articles had a bit more bite than I usually see with other communities. One of the more illuminating articles for me was from a LT who did a PEP tour with the Royal Navy, thought he was an experienced ship driver but when he showed up to Her Majesty's Ship he was surprised to learn he didn't know jack or shit when it actually came to seamanship.

To me being the Captain of a warship should be one of the most professionally satisfying things to do in the military, but almost every JO SWO I meet has little desire to put up with the stupidity and ass-pain of just being a SWO to get there. And it has nothing to do with not enjoying driving and 'fighting' the ship, it has to do with all of the other BS that SWO's like to inflict themselves with. I have to shake my head in wonder how or why many in leadership tolerate it.

 

[EM1toNFO]

OR.. to the OP, you could have the "best of both worlds" in regards to the bonus and SWO.. just go SWO-Nuke... then it'll be on like Donkey Kong...

Enjoy!

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

SWOs eat their young yeah?

It's true. I've seen it.

 

[desertoasis]

The SWO life and the general acknowledgment of self-inflicted pain has even garnered the attention of Proceedings, they devoted an entire issue to SWO-dom this spring and most of the articles were critical in one way or the other of SWO-dom and especially it's training. SOP to a degree for Proceedings, but some of the articles had a bit more bite than I usually see with other communities. One of the more illuminating articles for me was from a LT who did a PEP tour with the Royal Navy, thought he was an experienced ship driver but when he showed up to Her Majesty's Ship he was surprised to learn he didn't know jack or shit when it actually came to seamanship.

To me being the Captain of a warship should be one of the most professionally satisfying things to do in the military, but almost every JO SWO I meet has little desire to put up with the stupidity and ass-pain of just being a SWO to get there. And it has nothing to do with not enjoying driving and 'fighting' the ship, it has to do with all of the other BS that SWO's like to inflict themselves with. I have to shake my head in wonder how or why many in leadership tolerate it.

A few questions.

1. Regarding the LT who went to England, at what point do seamanship skills become less necessary, giving way to automation, somewhat analogous to the aviation community's UAV development? One of the big selling points of the Zumwalt destroyers is the significantly reduced crew size and efficiency. At what point do the seamanship skills just become redundant? I know this is kind of a silly question, but worth asking I think.

2. If SWO Ensigns and JGs really have a problem with their treatment and consider it a detriment to training (someone help me out on this one, whether this Ensign 'abuse' helps or hurts), then why don't they go to someone in charge as a group and make their case? Surely there is a way for these issues to be discussed, right? And yes, I'm fully aware that its usually not smart for FNGs to come in and immediately want to change things or whine about their treatment, but there's gotta be at least SOME recourse for these Ensigns.

On that note, I get the impression that there is a lot more 'fear-of-rank' in the SWO community than in aviation. Not to say that I would pop off at an winged LT or anything, but I feel like higher-ranking officers are much more accessible here than if I were a SWO.

3. Why does it seem like the SWO community as a whole has not seemed to recognize the stigmas attached to their community, and actively taken steps to rectify it instead of just accepting it as a reality of the job? Personally, I'd take a page out of the Marine Corps' training book and ensure that every training action taken has a purpose. Even rationalizing actions as 'stress management' would probably make a difference.

Keep in mind that I'm asking these questions knowing that I have exactly 24 days at sea, and a resulting saltiness factor of about zero. I'm not going to presume to know how the SWO world works, just posing the questions.

 

[Seafort]

Seems I am causing a bit more grief than I ever intended, and apologise for that. I never meant to start any arguments or flamewars. I certainly don't expect people to trade expletives because of a thread I started. If its outlived its usefulness, perhaps it is best to just let it die.

As for what I understand about SWO vs Aviation, I was a midshipman, and took all the classes, went on all the trips, spent time aboard various vessels, spent time at Corpus and the NAS near Dallas. I presume I know as much as most middies do. Which still isn't a heck of a lot, considering the "idealised" view we are presented with, but more than I think most non-prior OCS applicants know.

Of course I want to focus on learning from both enlisted and the officers above me. I never meant to suggest otherwise. I don't plan to sit in my stateroom playing video games. I don't even like video games, I must be the only guy I know who doesn't have xboxwhazzit, or a pswhatnumbertheyareonnow, etc. I plan to get my under instruction watches out of the way, get as many checks on my qual card as I can, walk my spaces, and the spaces of other DIVOs. God knows at this point, I can't even remember how to properly hold a mo board! I refuse to be the shipmate that must be prodded or pushed to barely attain, or worse, is a non-attain. Why bother being a SWO if you're not interested in being a SWO?

This doesn't mean I am not looking for teaching opportunities, and I do know some of the pitfalls of bad decisions I made when I was younger. Not just alcohol induced, but also debt and improper financial planning. I made a lot of mistakes, and fixing them meant making a lot of changes that I wish I had just done in the beginning. It's important to me to be able to pass that information on. I know I won't be happy with a job where I am not teaching in some capacity, even if it is limited. I was always taught that this was an aspect of being an officer.

I love my current career. If not for the Navy, I would not consider it leaving. Being a Naval Officer is a calling. I can't silence it, and if I ignore it, I won't be able to look myself in the mirror. I regret my behavior and my actions four years ago. I have a second chance, and how many people get to say that?

 

[BackOrdered]

3. Why does it seem like the SWO community as a whole has not seemed to recognize the stigmas attached to their community, and actively taken steps to rectify it instead of just accepting it as a reality of the job? Personally, I'd take a page out of the Marine Corps' training book and ensure that every training action taken has a purpose. Even rationalizing actions as 'stress management' would probably make a difference.

The stigma is just what happens when you put a bunch of young college grads into a close quarter for 2 years at a time and rank them amongst themselves.

From a Supply POV, you have to take into consideration that Supply types, unlike SWOs, are spaced far enough apart to where really nothing we can do or say will affect each others career outside of direct aid and assistance. Going out of your way to help out other ship's Supply types actually pays off should you run out of say toilet paper and need another ship to OSO transfer you more fast (It happens). In fact, being the every man for themselves type gets around fast in supply and you could end up finding yourself in a logistic issue that no other supply type will want to put up with you long enough to help fix it. The only time supply gets competitive for JOs is on a big deck where you may have several JO supply corps officers, but that just proves the point.

 

[MasterBates]

Well.. Aviation has lots of JOs in competition with each other.

And the back stabbing is not there like the SWOs

 

[Seafort]

This is precisely what I don't understand. I have found SWOs here in Japan to go out of their way to help me. I can name O-1s to an O-6 that have been nothing but supportive of my desire to be a naval officer- regardless of what community I would end up in. My mid roommates that are SWOs have done the same for me. I'm just not seeing the backstabbing.

Middy cruises are one thing, but as I said in my own thread, I never believed that the cruises or other trips I was on reflected reality. Still, seems like if backstabbing was really such an issue, wouldn't the JOs be trying to prevent me from going SWO right now instead of going to bat for me like they are?

 

[Pags]

Still, seems like if backstabbing was really such an issue, wouldn't the JOs be trying to prevent me from going SWO right now instead of going to bat for me like they are?

They're just fattening you up so they can eat you if/when you become a SWO.

 

[ChunksJR]

Seems I am causing a bit more grief than I ever intended, and apologise for that.

No worries, you just brought a conversation to a "virtual aviator wardroom"....which will always be full of explicatives and flame wars.

I presume I know as much as most middies do. Which still isn't a heck of a lot,

You are wise beyond your years, padme.

I love my current career...Navy calling, etc...

Sounds like you're set then...Enjoy the Navy, no matter what you do. If you are looking for approval for your decision, however, try sailorbob.com, not airwarriors.

Good luck and look forward to bringing your PMC (pax, mail and cargo) someday from my helo perch, 500' above your stern.

 

[Uncle Fester]

...At what point do the seamanship skills just become redundant?...

As long as you're driving a ship on the water, seamanship matters. No matter how many bells and whistles the boat has, the sea will still crush it. Besides, there's no autopilot or laser-guided whatever that will keep you alongside an oiler (it's all eyeball and knowing how to conn the ship) or judge a sea state for you.

It's not because you're new to this that you don't appreciate it. I was and still am amazed how little emphasis the SWO community puts on basic seamanship. Other than rudder orders and the like, seamanship instruction consisted of: 1. Don't run into anything, and 2. When a decision has to be made, call the Captain. He'll make the decision for you. The things my Pops taught me about sailing when I was in short pants were far more useful than anything the Navy ever taught me about seamanship.

If SWO Ensigns and JGs really have a problem with their treatment and consider it a detriment to training (someone help me out on this one, whether this Ensign 'abuse' helps or hurts), then why don't they go to someone in charge as a group and make their case? Surely there is a way for these issues to be discussed, right?

...Why does it seem like the SWO community as a whole has not seemed to recognize the stigmas attached to their community, and actively taken steps to rectify it instead of just accepting it as a reality of the job?

See Flash's post about Proceedings' "Why is SWOdom so fucked up?" issue. The community morale and retention problems have been discussed many, many times at all levels. Yet, the community lives in a serious state of denial. The discussions invariably devolve into senior SWO's (O-5+) stating variations on:

1. Ensigns today are spoiled whiners.

2. I was beaten as an Ensign and it was good for me.

3. There are no morale problems.

4. If there are morale problems, they're caused by whiners and malcontents and a few bad apples.

I think it's impossible to appreciate, until ya been there, exactly how abusive SWO's can be to each other. I have witnessed everything from Divvos unashamedly backstabbing each other (one saying, "Wow, XO, I guess ENS X doesn't have enough tasking if he has time to linger over coffee" - this while ENS X was at the same table, three feet away), to a venomous, spittle-flying thrashing of a JG by a LT, while the JG's division was at quarters and witnessing the whole thing. Over something insanely trivial, too.

So if you go to your XO and tell him, sir, CHENG made an ass out of himself and embarrassed me in front of my division today, and XO tells you to shut the fuck up and get out of his stateroom, what do you do then? Kinda ends the 'discussion' quickly and permanently.

 

[BackOrdered]

This is precisely what I don't understand. I have found SWOs here in Japan to go out of their way to help me. I can name O-1s to an O-6 that have been nothing but supportive of my desire to be a naval officer- regardless of what community I would end up in. My mid roommates that are SWOs have done the same for me. I'm just not seeing the backstabbing.

Middy cruises are one thing, but as I said in my own thread, I never believed that the cruises or other trips I was on reflected reality. Still, seems like if backstabbing was really such an issue, wouldn't the JOs be trying to prevent me from going SWO right now instead of going to bat for me like they are?

Not a direct poke at SWOs, but the Navy in general:

Training =/= The Fleet

Don't fall for that trap.

Now, I know their are tons of good SWOs. Honestly, I can't think of one SWO on my ship I don't care for, but the community definitely has a different culture.

Well.. Aviation has lots of JOs in competition with each other.

And the back stabbing is not there like the SWOs

Maybe the two years of training builds of a healthy fellowship long before you report aboard. The 6 months at Athens for Supply helps us too.

 

[Seafort]

No worries, you just brought a conversation to a "virtual aviator wardroom"....which will always be full of explicatives and flame wars.

Fair enough.

You are wise beyond your years, padme.

My father is a retired 24 year veteran of the USAF. Joined out of high school. Served all over Asia, Vietnam, Europe, even the Artic. Made it up to Command Master Sergeant (think I have that right...). Trust me, he was not happy with my sh*tbag behavior as a middy, and would be even unhappier if I treated my enlisted personnel without the respect they deserve.

Sounds like you're set then...Enjoy the Navy, no matter what you do. If you are looking for approval for your decision, however, try sailorbob.com, not airwarriors.

Heh. I have been on SailorBob since I was a second class midshipman with orders to USS CHOSIN. SB is tons of fun, and I post regularly. I still wanted additional opinions. Intercommunity rivalry doesn't bother me when all in good fun, but I think there is a lot to be learned from other communities. Getting your opinions is important to me.

Good luck and look forward to bringing your PMC (pax, mail and cargo) someday from my helo perch, 500' above your stern.

Perhaps you could offer guidance on this spatial reasoning portion of the ASTB then? :icon_mi_1