Any atheists on this board?

[kevin]

"That's one theory. I can disprove it pretty easily - I don't believe there is a higher power, but I live a moral life. Why? I choose to; it's to my benefit and the benefit of those around me that I act morally. I don't act morally because I want to get into heaven or avoid hell, I just want to live a good life and help other people. Society as a whole needs ethics to function, and any good ethical system is based on a compromise between societal good and personal liberty. One can base systems of morality around a concept of God, but one can also have a consistent and practical secular values system. The major difference is that a God-based morality says, "do this, because God says so," while a secular moral system says, "do this, because it's in the best interests of humanity." Even the rules can be the same in the two systems, but they have a different basis."
actually i would argue that you arent choosing at all. your "choices" are simply mathematical equations, which appear as "choices" to you because it fits into that program of yourself. you are simply a product of the laws of the universe, no different than heat transfer or gravitation.

"To quote Max Tegmark: "the borderline between physics and metaphysics is defined by whether a theory is experimentally testable, not whether it is weird or involves unobservable entities." "
well i disagree with max on that. it's based on the assumption that the metaphysical is ultimately within the physical realm. basically implying that physicality (and it's methods, testability, etc) are the judge and jury.

"If I had the time and intelligence, I could look at all the scientific observations and arrive at a conclusion myself. I trust scientists to do this for me because I have a job that keeps me busy, and scientists keep each other honest. "
you kind of missed my point. i was referring to the instances of proving that your parents love you for instance, by their actions. this is not provable as far as i can see, cause grand deception can always be argued. in terms of science, this is still possible. the entire world could be ganged up against you- how do you know? you certainly cant prove it is not (it's that whole truman show doxology). you mentioned the key word "trust" in your statement. but beyond this, how do you even know that the laws of the universe are really the laws of the universe? maybe our reference frame is very finite. the carnot engine believes that entropy decreases...we know that entropy of the system only is decreasing, the universe is increasing....or do we? what if this universe is only a small bubble in a vastly greater universe or dimension. i know this sounds wierd, but the point is that even science is limited to reference frames and hence is not completely provable as an absolute, no matter how much evidence there is.

the paper im referring to is the one where the entire light exited the tube before it finished entering.

my most solid argument for the existence of God is that this hasnt turned into a flame war yet. mich-osu game is still pending.

 

[EA-6B1]

I got this email today, and I thought it might be something worth posting. It's rather long, but take it as you wish...


> WANT A DONUT?
>
> There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a
> studious man who taught at a small college in the Western United
> States. Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in
> Christianity at this particular institution . Every student was required
> to take this course his or her freshman year regardless of his or her
> major.
>
> Although Dr. Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the
> gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the
> course as nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts, most
>
> students refused to take Christianity seriously. This year, Dr.
> Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a
> freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto seminary for
> the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an
> imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the
> school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class.
>
> One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could
> talk with him.
> "How many push-ups can you do?"
> Steve said, "I do about 200 every night."
>
> "200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think
> you could do 300?"
> Steve replied, "I don't know... I've never done 300 at a time."
> "Do you think you could?" again asked Dr. Christianson. "Well, I can
> try," said Steve.
>
> "Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I
> need you to do about 300 push ups in sets of ten for this to work.
> Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," said the
> professor.
>
> Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it."
> Dr. Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me
> explain what I have in mind."
>
> Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the
> room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts.
> Now these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy
> BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty
> excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going
> to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's
> class.
>
> Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked,
> "Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?" Cynthia said,
> "Yes."
> Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do
> ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?" "Sure."
> Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat
> in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.
>
> Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe, do
> you want a donut?"
> Joe said, "Yes."
> Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have
> a donut?"
> Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut.
>
> And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for every
> person before they got their donut. And down the second aisle, till Dr.
> Christianson came to Scott. Scott was on the basketball team, and in
> as good condition as Steve. He was very popular and never lacking for
> female companionship.
> When the professor asked, "Scott do you want a donut?" Scott's reply
> was, "Well, can I do my own pushups?"
> Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them." Then Scott said,
> "Well, I don't want one then."
>
> Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve,
> would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"
> With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups.
> Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!" Dr. Christianson said,
> "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my
> donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it."
>
> And he put a donut on Scott's desk. Now by this time, Steve had begun
> to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because
> it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to
> see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.
>
> Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were
> beginning to get a little angry.
> Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, "Jenny, do you want a donut?" Sternly,
> Jenny said, "No."
> Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more pushups
> so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?" Steve did ten, Jenny
> got a donut.
>
> By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were
> beginning to say "No" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the
> desks. Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get
> these pushups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of
> sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to
> get red because of the physical effort involved.
>
> Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the
> class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten
> pushups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work
> for all of those uneaten donuts. He sent Robert over to where Steve was
> so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely. Dr. Christianson
> started down the fourth row.
>
> During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered
> in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides
> of the room. When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and
> saw that now there were 34 students in the room.
>
> He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it. Dr. Christianson
> went on to the next person and the next and the next. Near the end of
> that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a lot
> more time to complete each set.
>
> Steve asked Dr. Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each
> one?"
> Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups..
> You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr.
> Christianson went on.
>
> A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room
> and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice,
> "NO! Don't come in! Stay out!" Jason didn't know what was going on.
>
> Steve picked up his head and said, "No, let him come."
> Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you
> will have to do ten pushups for him?"
>
> Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut"
> Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the
> way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?"
> Jason, new to the room hardly knew what was going on. "Yes," he said,
> "give me a donut."
>
> "Steve, will you do ten pushups so that Jason can have a donut?"
> Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason,
> bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.
>
> Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, then started on those visitors
> seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each pushup in
> a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity.
> Sweat was profusely dropping off of his face and, by this time, there
> was no sound except his heavy breathing, there was not a dry eye in the
> room.
>
> The very last two students in the room were two young women, both
> cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the
> second to last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a donut?"
>
> Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you."
>
> Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten pushups
> so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?" Grunting from the
> effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda.
>
> Then Dr. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you
> want a donut?"
> Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr.
> Christianson, why can't I help him?"
>
> Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it
> alone, I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that
> everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not.
> When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked at my
> grade book. Steve, here is the only student with a perfect grade.
> Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior
> work. Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up
> he must do push ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my
> party unless he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a
> deal for your sakes. Steve, would you do ten pushups so Susan can have
> a donut?"
>
> As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding
> that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350
> pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.
>
> Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our
> Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'Into thy hands
> I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done
> everything
> that was required of Him, he yielded up His life. And like some of
> those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."
>
> Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically
> exhausted, but wearing a thin smile. "Well done, good and faithful
> servant." said the professor, adding "Not all sermons are preached in
> words."
>
> Turning to his class the professor said, "My wish is that you might
> understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that
> have been given to you by our Heavenly Father through the sacrifice of
> our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; who spared not the only Begotten Son,
> but gave Him up for all of us, now and forever. Whether or not we
> choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid. Wouldn't you
> be foolish and ungrateful to leave it laying on the desk?"

 

[riley]

First off - Thanks for the great story EA-6B1! I'm sure others are going to jump all over it - and that's their choice, but I just wanted you to know I appreciated it.

Kevin, I completely agree with your statement, "still, it's an interesting argument about absolutes and right and wrong. they can only exist if there is a yield to a higher power. as long as there isnt one, nothing we do is right or wrong."

I offer a different rebuttal than what you did to Mcnamara, (I surely hope we are not walking mathematical equations).

Mcnamara stated that, "That's one theory. I can disprove it pretty easily - I don't believe there is a higher power, but I live a moral life. Why? I choose to; it's to my benefit and the benefit of those around me that I act morally."

No offense Mcnamara, but you aren't disproving anything. I think the point of Kevin's argument (and definitely my argument) is that if there are no absolutes, what determines right and wrong? Is it the majority, the minority, each person determines what is right or wrong for them, or for the greater good? - the latter seemed to be what I think you were arguing for. One easy way to test an argument is to take it to the extreme. What does societal good mean - or for that matter, who determines what is good? 1940 Germany defined/determined societal good as destroying the weak, the sick, the infirm, the minority, the Jew, the Gypsy, the homosexual. The majority defined a set of moral beliefs that were pressed onto the minority - by your argument, you cannot say 1940 Germany was wrong.

More recently Sudanese muslims butchered entire villages of Sudanese Christians - the muslims would argue it is for societal good...

So right and wrong is just an opinion??

 

[ben]

EA-6B1, thanks.

 

[kevin]

ya riley, that's a different approach than what i took, but equally valid.

ea6b1: that's somewhat ballsy putting that here, and i commend you for it.

off topic: there's a radio station here that has started playing christmas music that will go non-stop through dec 25. should i then also get my easter baskets ready?

 

[kevin]

oh, one more quick thing. in all honesty, the majority of athiests ive met and had discussions with (certainly not all, but a majority) have tended to be quite abrasive and arrogant towards those of us "believers". but i have to say im really impressed with the people on this board at least. it's definitely affected my opinion of "you people" in a good way. except you macnamara...I ****ING HATE YOU, YOU PIECE OF ****!!!! DIE!!!! sorry, terrets is out of control again.

 

[vegita1220]

aww..and you were doing so well kev. Bad kevin, no donut.

 

[Clina]

I, too, am an athiest. And most of London is prodominantly athiest or agnostic.

I agree with andrandrew@itmpl.com.au, especially about the science part. The only form of after life I believe in is the Judgement of those close to you and (in the case of the Great personalites in society, like leaders of countries or science) how history judges you. Hense why I try to be a good person: so that I will be remembered as such, because (hopefully) I will have made other people's lives a little better and easier. However, another one of my beliefes is that hopeing for something to happen (in what ever form) has no effect unless you also do something about it, one of my personal reasons for trying to serve in the Military.

 

[andrew]

-There are three books yall need to read-

The Bible

"Fate is the Hunter"..this is probably one of the top books dealing with aviation and if you are an aviator you owe it to yourself to read.

"Gods and Generals"

 

[DevilDucksGirl]

Ok, female invasion here- I feel some estrogen needs to infiltrate this room...

Andrew- I agree. While in college- one of the requirements for an aviation class was to read Fate is the Hunter. Great book- and a good read for anyone in the aviation field.

Andrew- I agree again- The Bible. Now I am sure this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers- and I will forever be 'named' a 'Bible beating conservative freak' - but honestly- what you all call me- doesn't really matter! So, if you put me down on here for all to see for what I'm about to say- honestly- you won't hurt my feelings- but you'll just make yourselves look like jerks!

You can choose to believe there is a God or you can't. Obviously I do. God gives us choices each and every day as humans. We are not puppets on strings- we are humans fully and able to make life decisions. However- this isn't just a 'free for all' down here. There are consequences for our actions.

Just like you believe that Christopher Columbus found the Americas should you too believe that Jesus Christ lived on this earth. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, walked the earth teaching the word of God- whom Jesus was first sent by and died on the cross for all of our sins- so that you may be forgiven of YOUR sins and live in the Kingdom of Heaven! Of course you weren't there to witness this- and those who say you can't believe in something without witnessing it- I believe are nieve. You also didn't witness that Christopher Columbus ventured across the seas to land on Plymouth Rock! But- when your eating Thanksgiving dinner next week you'll think about it and when you were in elementary school- you certainly learned about it!

John 3:16 Clearly states: For God so loved the world that he sent his only son that whoever believes in him- should have everlasting life. You weren't there to witness Jesus being crusified on the cross- but it is documented history just like the Egyptians that lived in Cairo! We didn't physically see that - but in junior high- we learned about it!

Sure- sometimes as a Christian I have trouble in believing it too. Just like there is a God for good, there is the Devil for bad. I believe in them both. I know from the teachings of the Bible which- wasn't written by God - or any one person- this book was an accumilation of teachings for prophets and disciples witnessing the life of Jesus and those being told by God before Jesus' time. The point is- it is so easy - the Bible clearly states- you believe in this things and you will have everlasting life in heaven- and if you do not, then you will perish to hell.

I'll quickly end- but first my testemony- by giving you some really really great examples of how I know that God does exist- as I am sure I am losing the attention of many of the athiests, etc on this board. This is not a 'woe is me story' but a darn good example that 'modern science' as you all seem to so believe in- was left in complete shock, disbelief and had really pretty much given up on the hope of any 'scientific' survival. When I was 15 I was diagnosed with Leukemia. This is not something that I inherited from anyone in the family- not any bad flu that went astray- just cancer it one of its most complex forms. During my treatment at one of the top Children's Research Hospitals in the US- I developed along with cancer, a stroke-which has yet to be explained- other than a fall to the floor- followed by seizures- which came from the reminents of the stroke- which then put me into a coma for some time- along with a form of a flesh-dying disease- which literally killed off a portion of my body and was only small measurements from my heart and still after 10-11 months after all of this 'fun' gained the status of remission from cancer- and almost 9 years later- I am still cured. And throughout all of that- 'modern science' had given up on me ever living through any of this- and sat around puzzled.

Before that I believed in God- He had protected me and watched over me time and time again- just as He does for each of you EVERY SINGLE DAY!! But, after that ordeal as a teen - I have only begun to believe and trust in Him more. There are miracles like this that happen every day. So many times is 'modern science' left with their hands shoved in their pockets because they have no explanation for the things that have occured- or any way of solving this or that. You know what 'modern science' is to me? God playing with a chemistry set! There are so many things that we still don't know- and I don't believe that we ever will until after our lifetimes here on earth.

So, for all of you non-believers- you can continue to wrap yourself in the thoughts of their not being any creation of the earth- that you were just formed out of the universe headed in one direction or another- or whatever you believe- but you can't 100% honestly tell me that you haven't ever thought when your life was on the line- or you didn't think you should've come out of a terrible ordeal as good as you did- that you didn't wonder if God was there to bring you through it. If you want to prove me wrong- go ahead. But I ask you to give God a try- try praying just once. Or try it 5 times- pray for some enlightenment- and you'll be surprised how/when you find the answer. God doesn't work in our time- but in His. So, if you pray, and 30 seconds later you don't have the answer you're looking for- don't give up- or think He doesn't exist. But I am sure you'll start to wonder after He does answer you- it may be tomorrow- 5 or 10 years later- but there is a plan for you- and you just have to believe in that! How could all of these millions of people on this earth- just be here alone? After centuries and centuries of people- I don't believe that was created in just one 'bang' theory- maybe it was- maybe that is how God created the earth, the moon, the sun and the stars- was through a 'bang' but ultimately- He created all of that first!!

Just something to think about. Getting off of my soapbox. I just felt lead over the past few days reading these posts- to put something here. I am not sure it will do any good- it will probably make a lot of people mad at me- but I'd rather you be mad at me and wonder and think about what I said- than to not. Please just don't bash ME or purposely put me down. We are all adults here. If you feel like you'd like to highly dispute me- you can PM me- or if you have any questions- I will do my best to answer them.

My prayers are out to you all!

God Bless-

Heather

 

[kevin]

regarding that point about the possibility of several gods instead of just one... the idea of perfection kind of implies to me a lack of parts. it's tough for me to imagine the perfect being as several beings. partly because God is not a being or thing at all, in fact words cant really be attributed- so to think of multiples of that is tough.

that still cracks me up how people from the south actually type "yall" (andrew im assuming you are southern born and bred). it's just really strange for a "northerner" like myself to read that. so is it wierd for you to read "you all"?

vegit: NO DONUT!!!??!! come on man, that's a little harsh. how bout just locking me in the basement for a few days? as you reply "maybe later" or "maybe if youre good".

 

[andrew]

-Heather
My prayers are with you and that was a good post. I will be the first to admit that I am not always a good christian but I do believe in God thanks to my family and hope that people will read your comments and give it a chance even though it might be hard. I do not blame them for thinking christianity is crazy. But if they give it a chance they may understand its not. Aviation is a dangerous occupation, or hobby and I am glad to know that God is watching over me.

 

[andrew]

Kevin-
I know that this is off topic but I just had to comment. Yes, I am from the south and do have a southern accent. I went to high school for 2 years down in Harlingen Tx, Marine Military Academy and you would think in Texas that a southern accent might go unnoticed. No way, they thought I sounded like Forest Gump but it realy isnt quite that bad. And then I alway's get a laugh when I am flying into Orlando, Miami, New York etc.. and the Air Traffic controller will break in the middle of radio transmissions just to ask me "where are you from and that accent cracks me up".
"Well I reckn Ill be talkn to yall later"!!!!

 

[EA-6B1]

You know what 'modern science' is to me? God playing with a chemistry set!

Nice. I like that one. I wasn't trying to cause anymore flames on here when I posted that email. Everyone has been posting their own thoughts, and I let that email talk for me. Heather, I really appreciate your sense of accountability to feel led to post your message on here. Our God is awesome, and I know that he works in and through all of us.

I never noticed the "Ya'll" thing before, Kevin, but I guess you're right. I guess it's a southern thing. Anyways, off to run.

 

[kevin]

heather, youre a Bible beating conservative freak. just kidding. nice one.

andrew, God is not watching over you....we just talked. sorry about that. good luck with your flying career.