• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

And the PRT changes yet again

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
By that line of reasoning, do FNG’s get dedicated study time at the squadron? After all, they are required to learn their aircraft and tactics while doing their ground job.
No, but they get assigned the ground jobs that are only nominally time consuming (ground safety, PAO), same idea as when Airman Snuffy/LCpl Puller check in and get jobs that leave enough time to learn and earn the next qual in their specialty instead if being assigned night check supervisor right out of the gate.

Out of all my Navy squadron COs, one used to regularly go for regular training runs on his own in the middle of the workday (be out of the squadron for about an hour sometimes). That sent a pretty clear message to all the departments and shops what he considered permissable or wanted to encourage, but we didn't have a high take rate at the deckplate level or in the wardroom. That was just one CO out of several. Come to think of it there was another guy like that but I was working at the wing by then (and I wouldn't really call it "working"). The rest just didn't make it a personal priority, at least not a high priority like that.

YMMV and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
By that line of reasoning, do FNG’s get dedicated study time at the squadron? After all, they are required to learn their aircraft and tactics while doing their ground job.
The facilities and mentors were there, and early FNG ground jobs were not 9 hour a day tasks...by design. When you weren't doing your ground job, you were working to finish your upgrade requirements. Readiness was tied to turning NO-Ps into ACs in my community, so yes. There's also lots of visibility when someone got close to the upgrade timeline from the DH/XO/CO/Wing...The community writ large made qualification a priority mainly because it looked terrible on all levels of leadership when someone didn't meet the requirement. That's another discussion for another day in terms of turning out a quality product , but there were resources, time, and funding dedicated to ensuring FNGs turned into useful warm bodies in a timely manner.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
If you’re falling behind on that aspect, there will be multiple people telling you about it, and ensuring that it’s getting fixed. If it doesn’t, the end result is a FNAEB.

But I wouldn’t use a very specific example like this to frame a policy for the whole Navy.

As for your point, among tacair pilots the Marines actually seem to be the worst at immediately determining who the “haves” and “have-nots” are in terms of who’s going to get the flight time needed for quals, upgrades, etc. Are you implying that it’s all determined based off of who puts in the most amount of study time when they’re an FNG, without taking any other factors into account?
I’m not implying that at all. Just that it’s required for the job, just like fitness, but neither were built into the schedule in my experience.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I’m not implying that at all. Just that it’s required for the job, just like fitness, but neither were built into the schedule in my experience.
I think you are correcti n that it was technically never written on the daily flight schedule "LTJG Scoolbubba - Offline ASW Tactics brief 1400-1500 W. LCDR Hardass." It was, however, very clearly explained to me upon check in that my job was to earn tactical qualifications over the next 24 months, the sooner the better. My tasks would be to handle my piece of departmental requirements. The priority, should there be a conflict, went to preparing for the next event. Also, there were scheduled events for people who needed a boost to get over the hump. Mini qual boards, extra time in the sim, monitoring other sims, stuff like that was scheduled for the left side of the bell curve.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I’m not implying that at all. Just that it’s required for the job, just like fitness, but neither were built into the schedule in my experience.
Right- but how much was it built out of the schedule? The Navy is pretty bad for that (all the main communities, EOD, specwar, rescue swimmer status, those things run differently from the norm).
 

Angry

NFO in Jax
None
I’m not implying that at all. Just that it’s required for the job, just like fitness, but neither were built into the schedule in my experience.
I've never had it built into my schedule either - but that didn't mean I couldn't find the time. Even when working 12-15 hours days, it's highly unlikely I was actually working that whole time. An hour for lunch frequently became a 45 minute workout, 15 minutes to get food, then eat it at my desk. More than once I turned over a blue folder to a DH and said "here is this for review, I've got something else I need to catch up on for an hour, can I come back and grab your comments for revision after?" I don't think I was ever told no. At least as JOs, we all know that 25% of your day is spent waiting for the next meeting/brief/task, whatever. People might prioritize other issues, but to say there isn't time to workout is nonsense.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I've never had it built into my schedule either - but that didn't mean I couldn't find the time. Even when working 12-15 hours days, it's highly unlikely I was actually working that whole time. An hour for lunch frequently became a 45 minute workout, 15 minutes to get food, then eat it at my desk. More than once I turned over a blue folder to a DH and said "here is this for review, I've got something else I need to catch up on for an hour, can I come back and grab your comments for revision after?" I don't think I was ever told no. At least as JOs, we all know that 25% of your day is spent waiting for the next meeting/brief/task, whatever. People might prioritize other issues, but to say there isn't time to workout is nonsense.
That’s kind of what I’m getting at. There were certainly days I skipped workouts because real stuff was more important but a first class PFT was always well assured. And although every community is different, I’d guess eliminating needlessly long days makes more sense than scheduling mandatory PT
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
That’s kind of what I’m getting at. There were certainly days I skipped workouts because real stuff was more important but a first class PFT was always well assured. And although every community is different, I’d guess eliminating needlessly long days makes more sense than scheduling mandatory PT

I'm not being snarky, but was PT scheduled during TBS or not? What about in infantry platoons? Is it scheduled, or is it on your own time during the day as part of the average Lance Coolie gruntish day's duties?

My guess, having not been lean or green but I do know a couple, is that it is the former vice the latter. Namely because in those situations, physical conditioning is not just part of being an officer/Marine but is also command priority. Priorities get time dedicated to them, nice to haves do not.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I'm not being snarky, but was PT scheduled during TBS or not? What about in infantry platoons? Is it scheduled, or is it on your own time during the day as part of the average Lance Coolie gruntish day's duties?

My guess, having not been lean or green but I do know a couple, is that it is the former vice the latter. Namely because in those situations, physical conditioning is not just part of being an officer/Marine but is also command priority. Priorities get time dedicated to them, nice to haves do not.
At TBS, absolutely but not every day. People were still expected to PT on their own. Also the nature of OCS means that to even make it to the fleet you can’t be a marginal first class PFT’er although obviously it varies and people slack off.

In my squadron we almost never had command PT, because it would mean either coming in pre dawn and still not getting night crew involved, or doing it on a no-fly day instead of maintenance. Shops PT’d some, but generally it was up to the individual. In my battalion, they did platoon and maybe squad PT, but frankly unless in the field most of the grunts didn’t have fuck-all to do. It’s still funny hearing the misconceptions from infantry officers about how life is easy in the wing when we viewed a FAC tour as a vacation. Show up and drink coffee, check email, maybe a meeting, PT, lunch, BS, maybe one last meeting.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Admittedly my perspective is from the category of people who are self motivated to exercise. Because of that, I would be very annoyed if my CO forced me into the gym with over 100 other sailors and I couldn't get through my routine in a timely manner. I would much rather go at an off peak time so I can get done in an hour or so. I can understand people benefiting from the motivation of someone requiring them to be there and dressed just to keep them disciplined enough not to just hit the snooze button.
And I totally get that mindset...one that many of us had at the time. As others have also been alluding to, overall manning, which can lead to (but not guaranteed to) increased readiness while also allowing for a more efficient (ie, normal) work day. But of course now we're talking fixing the Navy, writ large, which isn't realistic.

In my particular example, we had the variables of an extremely limited pool of man-power (ie, qualified technicians), trying to maintain a normal work day, and also meeting requirements. Something had to give to meet the "demands" of the Sailors.

Did you do anything to account for people who already had a routine or was it mandatory for everyone?
There was some additional politics going on with the CMC, which had to be dealt with, but at the time, it was mandatory for everyone. When we needed an early start to meet the flight schedule, I had the CO agree that could pull individuals from PT as long as it wasn't a regular occurrence.

Keep in mind that the majority of the blue shirt portion of the Command Climate Survey was echoing this overall "command PT" idea, as well, so there was a critical mass of those that wanted it. Overall, I think the CO handled the situation well, given some of the constraints being put on him as well as a CMC who was terrible. The CO was a self-PT stud, as well, so he got it, but he was playing the long game as he continued to work towards getting rid of that CMC, and this wasn't a battle he wanted to get too in-depth on when he knew I would handle it meeting the intent, but still get Mx done.
 

AllAmerican75

Running the IT Help Desk
None
Contributor
So let's fix what's keeping them at work for 12 hours instead of buying into excuses on why it's too hard to PT for 2.5-3 hours a week.
On this much we agree.

CO's are responsible for fitness, yes, but nothing says that it has to occur during normal working hours.
Paragraph 5A of the OPNAV 6110.1J states that PT will be included within the normal workweek.

This is kind of what I saw as the best approach to PT. Muster everyone and then let them go do their own thing while providing guided PT for those who want/need it. Groups will eventually form and all the crossfit guys will go deadlift, some guys will play soccer, some guys will go for a run, some will do their daily seven and paced run, and others will hide and do nothing. The nothing doers will eventually be found out and dealt with via PRT failures. This let's people do what they enjoy while still incorporating it into the workday.
This is what I have seen work well in green side and SOF/SPECWAR units. PT is from 0700 to 0900 and everyone better be PTing or have a valid excuse. Also, those communities don't seem to have the same mindset of working 12+ hours a day for no reason. Gee, I wonder why retention is so good (Not including individual community politics).

We need to dedicate more time to formally teaching personnel planning and management tools and techniques to senior enlisted and junior officers during leadership courses. We expect this is something everyone will 'pick up as they go.' Some never do for a variety of different reasons and it doesn't become obvious until they're in charge of a division / department / ship.
We agree on two things apparently.
 

VMO4

Well-Known Member
The thread brings back memories. As an enlisted Marine maintainer, we often had senior NCO's who had grown up in the infantry side of the house. They were used to the world of there is always time to train and "Every Marine a rifleman". We had one SGTMAJ finishing up his career in the wing after many years humping in the field. He would schedule, during duty hours, time for PT, EST, NBC, whatever else good grunts do....He had us out one day in the parking lot in front of the hangar practicing squad rifleman tactics and maneuvers. That lasted until the XO realized why his skid was not out of Phase Inspection on time. But we did understand it was our duty to stay in PFT shape on our own time.

However, and this has been mentioned before, during my time in the Corps, we always worked regular duty hours. Even on deployment on the boat/desert or whatever, and the flight schedule was 0500-0000, we usually had the staffing to have a day crew and a night crew. You did your 8 hours, give or take, and took of your business on your own time. If I worked 12 hours days for very long, and still was told to PT into Marine shape on my own, I would have been as disgruntled an E-4 as has existed in the fine tradition of the Corps.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
If The PFA was anything other than a force-shaping tool, we would actually use it as a metric for advancement. Nobody cares if you got an outstanding-high or P/WS...as long as you reported a passing score.

I don’t need the IT2 to run marathons, I need him to fix my fucking computer. I don’t need YN1 to yoke out 20 pull-ups, I need those fucking Evals chopped and routed.

The communities/rates that require fitness to be effective work it into the schedule for the day, the rest of us spend our time where it is important (the SCIF/Plane/Office).

My experience in navy medicine, any galley ever, and at sea tell me that our health comes a distant third to operations and admin.

I won’t waste my time, or that of my Sailors, requiring them to PT, as long as they report a passing grade and we can move on to the next mando evolution.

I would think skipping the last three PFA’s, and being effective as a force, along with skipping all the bullshit meetings, and being effective as a force, would be one good learning point that came out of COVID...
 
Top