Airlines & The Unions: The Classic Love-Hate Relationship:

[ChuckMK23]

Forgive me - and no disrespect intended - but help me understand the whole culture of ALPA and their basic distrust of airline management?

I can't imagine how tough it is to run an airline - but isn't the numero uno bottom line - above all else priority - is to generate profit and wealth fo rthe shareholders?

I fully understand the need for collective bargaining - it's a great concept - and maybe since I'm not out there flying the line I may not really understand... but you guys are pretty tough on your executive leadership at the majors. It's a cut throat industry - I mean you have all this regulatory compliance that generates costs - on top of highly trained work force - on top of competition and infrastructure that all cost huge bucks.

I guess I don't understand why ALPA feels a need to have a seat at the table when it comes to business oriented stuff...

I'm a huge business traveler - Probably 100,000 miles a year at times - and I know I just want semi affordable rates (CVG to LAX last time was $2600 with 2 days notice - eccck!) and great service and amenities. I want a cooperative and pleasing cabin crew, and my bags to arrive when I do

 

[A4sForever]

Forgive me - and no disrespect intended - but help me understand the whole culture of ALPA and their basic distrust of airline management?

I guess I don't understand why ALPA feels a need to have a seat at the table when it comes to business oriented stuff...

I'm a huge business traveler - Probably 100,000 miles a year at times - and I know I just want semi affordable rates ... and great service and amenities. I want a cooperative and pleasing cabin crew, and my bags to arrive when I do

No offense taken .... This question is constantly posed and most people do not understand the historic relationship between ALPA and the airlines. I know what ALPA is and what it is not -- and perfect, it ain't. But when management wants pilots to sacrifice any and all for the corporate bottom line -- and then they burn it --literally -- in fare wars, we deserve a say in how "our" money (givebacks) is going to be "invested". (I love the new-speak in mgmt-labor cost discussions). We are not "getting" anything that has not previously been agreed to in negotiations with management. One of our EMT actually "cried" -- no joke -- during negotiations past when things got heated and he saw HIS PERSONAL investment at risk: how's that for "leadership"? You want to work for that pansy ??

And distrust of management? Read "Flying the Line" for the history of ALPA and the airlines in the U.S. Remember Frank Lorenzo? How would YOU like to work for him. I know whereof I speak, as I was a VP (briefly -- a short story) at one of my former airlines. I even had my own secretary and a credenza in my office ....

If possible, the airlines would have us work for nothing. Look around the airlines in this country and others --- in almost all cases -- you get what you pay for. Training, equipment, infrastructure -- all these things go into that "great service and amenities" that you want -- and they all cost money. Airplanes cost everyone the same, so does fuel, meals (you did want one, right?), blah, blah, blah ... where the difference is most defined between airlines is in the cost of labor.

The airlines are probably the most regulated segment of corporate America -- except for labor costs. So where does management go for relief? You got it. I cannot do justice to your question in one post -- it would probably take a book. Just remember nearly 45% of the cost of every domestic U.S. ticket is because of government taxes and unfunded mandates -- not labor $$$$.

And remember, I am a business traveler, too. To the tune of nearly 500,000 miles a year ...

ROGER BALL !!

 

[Frumby]

I couldn't agree more!! I am also an airline pilot associated with a union, though not ALPA. Historically, my company has been always willing to work with her pilots and we have never had a problem regarding labor. (Knock on wood) After watching the continuing saga of the other airlines I do realize that things may change so I support my union 100%. In the absence of the union, management has the ability to subject employees to unreasonable labor requests. Its not like we can quit Northwest as a 747 Capt and then go to United as a 747 Capt because we are fed up with NWA. If you leave then you start over at the bottom somewhere else. Intervention from the union on behalf of the pilots protects our quality of life. A fact that Jet Blue pilots, who are not unionized, are beginning to realize.
Frankly, I am not a fan of unions. I believe they are a dinosaur in our modern economy except the airline industry. An industry which is also a dinosaur in its thinking. I guess it takes a dinosaur to maintain a dinosaur.
Semper Fly, Frumby

 

[HAL Pilot]

Until I joined an airline, I was the typical Republican, anti-union, conservative. Since joining, I've realized just how important pilots' unions are to protecting jobs, pay and benfits. Here is the perfect example. Hawaiian wants the pilots to take work rule concessions to ensure profitability, but at the same time wants to pay managers $17 million in bonuses (up from the $7 million I mentioned on my last post on HAL in this thread). Unbelievable!


starbulletin.com/2005/03/30/business/story2.html

Hawaiian staying in bankruptcy longer
Meanwhile, the carrier has earmarked as much as $10 million as a potential bankruptcy success fee
By Allison Schaefers

Hawaiian Airlines' plan to emerge from its two-year bankruptcy by Friday was delayed yesterday when a judge pushed back a decision on whether to force a contract on pilots to mid-April.

Separately, it was revealed in court yesterday that Hawaiian has earmarked up to $10 million to pay for success fees to those who have steered it through bankruptcy......

......The union said pilots are angry over previous concessions in the light of bonuses Hawaiian paid to managers.

Thomas N. Ciantra, an attorney for the pilots union, raised that point yesterday during cross-examination of Hawaiian Airlines Trustee Joshua Gotbaum. If the airline is profitable enough to pay up to $7 million in performance bonuses for top managers and up to $10 million to pay success fees when it emerges from bankruptcy, then it can offer pilots more, Ciantra said.

Gotbaum, who confirmed the amounts during his testimony, said following the hearing that although the company and pilots are still at odds over contract terms, he believes an agreement can still be reached.........




Airline management needs to quit

and get real!


(Darn A4s, I love this picture stuff....)

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Until I joined an airline, I was the typical Republican, anti-union, conservative. Since joining, I've realized just how important pilots' unions are to protecting jobs, pay and benfits. Here is the perfect example. Hawaiian wants the pilots to take work rule concessions to ensure profitability, but at the same time wants to pay managers $17 million in bonuses (up from the $7 million I mentioned on my last post on HAL in this thread). Unbelievable!

Yea, but at what cost do we as consumers have to endure so pilots can keep their jobs? I understand your sentiment and can see why you would now be in favor of those unions. I tend to believe that no one has a right to work at any particular company or occupation, or to certain benefits given to them by any particular company. Are you not free to go fly for another carrier? The best thing about capitalism and the free market is that it works....everything will work itself out if you just leave it alone. Companies may die, people may lose their jobs, that is the risk. For me, my number one concern as a stockholder is whether the company (any company) is making any money for me. It's business, not personal.

 

[A4sForever]

1. ....... I tend to believe that no one has a right to work at any particular company or occupation
2. ...., or to certain benefits "given" (note: emphasis mine) to them by any particular company.

3. ......Are you not free to go fly for another carrier?

4. .......The best thing about capitalism and the free market is that it works....

.... Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve ........... ....... Now that I have your attention, let me ask you : you are not THAT naive when it comes to airlines and pilot employment ----- are you???

1. A "right" to work (as an airline pilot) ?? ... Of course not, we merit the job; we've done our homework and prepared --- and all the years, time, money, scrutiny, checks, re-checks, physicals, family separations etc., ad infinitum that "we" went through and still go through -- JUST TO GET HIRED --- let alone keep the job --- makes any government TS/NAC/BI/FBI security investigation, flying job, desk job, surface job pale by comparision. Most people on this web forum could NOT get hired by the airlines --- it's not a "right" -- we've earned it. We're not gods, we're just guys/gals who have done our homework, paid our dues, made a little "luck", and got something for it. Some people resent that success ..... and one finds it's usually those who don't have it.

2. Nothing is "given" to us by management. We have to negotiate (with management) for every dime of pay and benefits we get. The only thing "they "give" us is disrespect. Most airline managements hate the pilots; ironic, as nothing moves without us. If anything is "given" to us, it means we had to "give" up something else. Our CEO once asked to join us in my cockpit during flight --- sure: laugh and scratch with the "boss", right?? While sitting on the jumpseat he said: "I have no problem paying pilots what they're worth ... I just don't like paying them TWICE what they're worth" ... and that's a quote. Maybe he thought it was funny -- but that was not the tenor of the conversation. The cockpit got very quiet --- we turned back to our duties --- he left after 10 minutes of silence.

3. Go to work for another carrier ??? You have got to be joking !!! You must not be serious !!! You will start at the bottom, assuming you can get hired. You get NOTHING for your previous time, effort, experience, and contributions. How about this for illustration: every time you get a new set of orders --- you start off as the JO go-fer or the coffee mess officer --- As a LCDR, you put on a set of butter bars and do it all over again; start from the bottom, if you will -- but you won't ...... See how it (doesn't) work ... ??

4. Capitalism is great --- it's what our economy is built on. But as long as you're "working for the man" --- you're not a capitalist --- you're an employee. Every time I fly a 747 full of people or cargo across the pond --- the company grosses @ .75 to 1.0 mil. As in million dollar$. Where does that fit into the capitalist scheme of things??? Pretty well, I would suspect. I have been doing this for well over 20 years. So what am I worth to my employer? How about the guys next to me?? How about when an engine quits, or we have a "disturbance" onboard, or the WX is sh!t, or pick a number ---- how much are we worth then?? Why don't we ask the 400 pax who's asses we've just brought through that Typhoon? You guys who do not work in the "capitalist" world outside the military have some "reality" education coming your way after you leave the military.

You really should read about the history of the airlines and labor in the '30's --- "Flying the Line" is pretty good --- your reading will be a real eye-opener on how most airlines would only be happy if their employees worked for nothing. They already try to cut on maint. and parts -- cut to the bone and still pass FAA scrutiny. Remember, it's "70% and fly .... " with the bureacrats. But we have to be 100% --- as in NO MISTAKES .... It's starting to revert to a '30's management mindset today --- with LCC's and "globalization". How would you like the pilots from China Southern, for example, to fly you on your next trip??? What's your safety worth?? You really DO get what you pay for ..... unless you don't think you're worth very much.

Anyone want to read up on what the current "gouge" is for airline careers and employment --- try this link. It's relatively recent --- put out 4-5 months ago.

You will need Adobe Reader ... it's free ) let's see now, is that capitalism ... ??)

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx?itemid=944&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

There's so much more I could go into, but there's just not time or space. You're a good guy, Steve -- I can tell by your other posts that I've read. You are just simply out in left field without a glove on the questions re: airline employment.

THE BOTTOM LINE: I hold no brief for ALPA. I am not a union "fan" but I have worked on union comittees --- I know what ALPA is and what it isn't... I know where a lot of the "political bodies" are buried. I do not like (philisophically) the AFL-CIO .... but without ALPA --- and it's history in the U.S. and international airline industry --- flying would be much less safe than it is today ... and that's a fact. So what's that worth ... ??

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Ok, first and foremost. I'm not a good guy. I'm a great guy!

1. A "right" to work (as an airline pilot) ?? ... Of course not, we merit the job; we've done our homework and prepared --- and all the years, time, money, scrutiny, checks, re-checks, physicals, family separations etc., ad infinitum that "we" went through and still go through -- JUST TO GET HIRED --- let alone keep the job --- makes any government TS/NAC/BI/FBI security investigation, flying job, desk job, surface job pale by comparision. Most people on this web forum could NOT get hired by the airlines --- it's not a "right" -- we've earned it. We're not gods, we're just guys/gals who have done our homework, paid our dues, made a little "luck", and got something for it. Some people resent that success ..... and one finds it's usually those who don't have it.

Does this mean you feel you're entitled to that position? Hey I agree, you guys certainly earn the spot. You say "merit," which to me implies that it can't be taken away. I disagree. I don't resent your success at all. What I do resent is the notion of unions having such a great influence in corporations and other places of employment. I wasn't even specifically referring to the airline industry in my original post. Although that industry would be included in my list, I was referrring to labor unions in general (i.e. teachers unions, auto workers unions). In limited scope, they may serve a purpose, and in fact I do believe they were necessary at one point.

2. Nothing is "given" to us by management. We have to negotiate (with management) for every dime of pay and benefits we get. The only thing "they "give" us is disrespect. Most airline managements hate the pilots; ironic, as nothing moves without us. If anything is "given" to us, it means we had to "give" up something else. Our CEO once asked to join us in my cockpit during flight --- sure: laugh and scratch with the "boss", right?? While sitting on the jumpseat he said: "I have no problem paying pilots what they're worth ... I just don't like paying them TWICE what they're worth" ... and that's a quote. Maybe he thought it was funny -- but that was not the tenor of the conversation. The cockpit got very quiet --- we turned back to our duties --- he left after 10 minutes of silence.

It's unfortunate that the airline management treats its employees (pilots) with such disdain. However, they already know you're not going to leave once you're hired. There's too much to lose. Why wouldn't they try to pay you the lowest salary they can get away with? They know you're not going anywhere.

3. Go to work for another carrier ??? You have got to be joking !!! You must not be serious !!! You will start at the bottom, assuming you can get hired. You get NOTHING for your previous time, effort, experience, and contributions. How about this for illustration: every time you get a new set of orders --- you start off as the JO go-fer or the coffee mess officer --- As a LCDR, you put on a set of butter bars and do it all over again; start from the bottom, if you will -- but you won't ...... See how it (doesn't) work ... ??

Yes, I realize that. What all this comes down to is choice. If I knew ahead of time that I would face the scenario you outline (i.e. start over at each new duty station) then I would have had to weigh the cost vs. the benefit of this type of employment before choosing to enter it. Along that same line of thought, you chose to become an airline pilot right? I'm sure you knew about the seniority system before you were hired, yes? My point is that this is the risk you took with the job.

4. Capitalism is great --- it's what our economy is built on. But as long as you're "working for the man" --- you're not a capitalist --- you're an employee. Every time I fly a 747 full of people or cargo across the pond --- the company grosses @ .75 to 1.0 mil. As in million dollar$. Where does that fit into the capitalist scheme of things??? Pretty well, I would suspect. I have been doing this for well over 20 years. So what am I worth to my employer? How about the guys next to me?? How about when an engine quits, or we have a "disturbance" onboard, or the WX is sh!t, or pick a number ---- how much are we worth then?? Why don't we ask the 400 pax who's asses we've just brought through that Typhoon? You guys who do not work in the "capitalist" world outside the military have some "reality" education coming your way after you leave the military.

So does this mean you agree that if you just leave the system alone, it'll take care of itself?

You really should read about the history of the airlines and labor in the '30's --- "Flying the Line" is pretty good --- your reading will be a real eye-opener on how most airlines would only be happy if their employees worked for nothing. They already try to cut on maint. and parts -- cut to the bone and still pass FAA scrutiny. Remember, it's "70% and fly .... " with the bureacrats. But we have to be 100% --- as in NO MISTAKES .... It's starting to revert to a '30's management mindset today --- with LCC's and "globalization". ..... unless you don't think you're worth very much.

Come on now, if pilots worked for nothing, it be a lot harder to attract pilots to the job. Not too many pilots would want to put in their time as a flight instructor or commuter pilot if they already know their prospects for a good salary is slim to none as an airline pilot. Why? Why would they do it? They wouldn't, thus creating a shortage of pilots necessitating the airlines to increase pay/benefits (and therefore attract more pilots) until the system achieves a balance or sorts.

How would you like the pilots from China Southern, for example, to fly you on your next trip??? What's your safety worth?? You really DO get what you pay for.

That's my point. If consumers don't feel they are getting what they pay for, then that business will fail. And if that's the case, then let it fail.

but without ALPA --- and it's history in the U.S. and international airline industry --- flying would be much less safe than it is today ... and that's a fact. So what's that worth ... ??

Can you say for certain that flying wouldn't be safer if unions (ALPA) had stayed out of the picture?

 

[Geese]

Come on now, if pilots worked for nothing, it be a lot harder to attract pilots to the job. Not too many pilots would want to put in their time as a flight instructor or commuter pilot if they already know their prospects for a good salary is slim to none as an airline pilot. Why? Why would they do it? They wouldn't

That's right, and I'm not doing it. I'm a flight instructor/instrument instructor (and I'll get MEI before I go to OCS), but I have deemed that this "game" is not worth playing. I served 4 years in the Army and I had a very professional attitude. I went to college and got a degree and my ratings. The regional airlines (where you have to start) are not looking for professional pilots. They are paying $17 for 65 guarenteed hours a month or LESS in some cases. That right there tells me that they are not looking for a professional, they are looking for a buss driver. This continues all the way up, I can put in my time as a flight instructor for a few years and get enough hours to be CONSIDERED by a regional airlines, so that I can work for penuts for a regional airline untill I make captain. I hope the airlines fold because they've brought it on themselves. There's a lot of good pilots that will loose their jobs, but things have to change in the industry and it can't keep going in a graveyard spiral.

I don't have anything against flight instructing, and I want to flight instruct for the air-club on whatever base when I have some time in the military. I have no problem with "putting in my hours" as a flight instructor IF I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO GET ME ANYWHERE IN THE FUTURE. Unfortunatly, I don't think that it will. I think the best one can hope for (airline job) is to get a job with a regional airline flying a CRJ type aircraft. After 10 years as a CRJ captain you can make between 60 and 100K, anywhere from "ok, but not great" to "pretty good" in my book. You want to get hired by a major carrier? That might happen when you are 50 and have 4 billion flight hours, and then you can start out making less money again. Hope you don't get furloughed...

You are right, some of us are choosing "not to do it". I have big problems with the industry (major carriers) and how they operate on daily losses to avoid "loosing their customers". They don't need to restructure, to make their employees take another pay cut, etc, they need to "go away" and the industry needs a cold dose of reality. They've been perpetuating a failed business model, but they can't admit or own up to it. You can't blame them, how would you like it if you were an employee of a business and were told that the business is no longer making money and needs to be shut down? You'd fight it till the death, but if you could take a minute to see the big picture on the outside, you'd see what is inevitable.

There are some good pilot jobs out there, there are even a few good airline jobs out there, but this industry and profession is not what it used to be.

Unfortunatly, you'll always be able to attract pilots with penut paying pilot jobs. The sad truth is that many pilots are born into the job because their parents are loaded. It's not always the case and there are a lot of hardworking pilots that are broke of course, but the ones that are born into it and come with money will always be able to live on penuts to get their hours up, and it hurts those of us that are not born into it. There are even getups where they pay you nothing, or you pay them, to act as an airline pilot to gain hours. Those people will probably always exist, so the "penut jobs" will always exist, and with major airlines in so much trouble, it kind of kills opportunity at both ends...

 

[saltpeter]

Steve,
Please explain to me why it is that airline employees are forced to take salary and benefit concessions because their airlines' are in dire straits financially, although, upper level management continues to authorize themselves to continued raises and financial safety nets for when the company goes down the toilet. Shouldn't airline leadership bear any responsibility for their current situation along with their employees? This is why airline, teaching, corporate, etc. unions are needed now more than ever.

 

[A4sForever]

Ok, first and foremost. I'm not a good guy. I'm a great guy!
Can you say for certain that flying wouldn't be safer if unions (ALPA) had stayed out of the picture?

Great guy ? Hmmmm .... now I don't know --- will you accept "high average" ... ???

... and Yes,,,,,, (*stutter*twitch*stutter*) I can. You could too, if you took the time to read up on it --- instead of listening to CEO's who's view is that you and I are "quaint little people" who are only too lucky to have a job provided by "them". To deny the reality of ALPA's place in commercial aviation safety (and not just U.S., either -- international) is a sign of ... what?? No knowledge of airline history? Or perhaps latent --- (*gasp*wheeze*stutter*blink*) --- INSANITY???

I take back what I said about your being out in left field without a glove --- Heck --- they didn't even give you a uniform -- !!!

STEVE's airline world ???

------------------------------ BUT

------- when I return to verbally punish, humiliate, degrade and dissect your pre-conceived, ill-conceived, in concrete, reactionary-Republican, works for the government notions of reality and politics and money and the airlines -- (but with smiles .... and always happy ) ALOHA

 

[Geese]

Steve,
Please explain to me why it is that airline employees are forced to take salary and benefit concessions because their airlines' are in dire straits financially, although, upper level management continues to authorize themselves to continued raises and financial safety nets for when the company goes down the toilet. Shouldn't airline leadership bear any responsibility for their current situation along with their employees? This is why airline, teaching, corporate, etc. unions are needed now more than ever.

It's not that simple. Management might have it "better" than the pilots do fiscally, but untill you've been there and experienced it, it's kind of lame to say that they don't earn their money. Even considering all of that, if the airline is operating on daily losses, what does it matter? It's a failed business model, and cutting managment salaries might help a bit in the short term, but in the long term they need to come up with a new business model that makes money, that is the bottom line.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Steve,
Please explain to me why it is that airline employees are forced to take salary and benefit concessions because their airlines' are in dire straits financially, although, upper level management continues to authorize themselves to continued raises and financial safety nets for when the company goes down the toilet. Shouldn't airline leadership bear any responsibility for their current situation along with their employees? This is why airline, teaching, corporate, etc. unions are needed now more than ever.

Forced?? Is someone making them stay with the company? Is someone making them stay in the same occupation? The answer is a resounding no, they are not. This is one of the many things that is so great about this country. If you don't like where you work or feel you aren't getting paid enough, you are FREE to go elsewhere. Maybe it'll be the same type of job you had before, maybe it won't. But let's not pretend like anyone is being "forced" to do anything.

Now, if it were me in that same situation you describe above, I will concede that I'd be royally pissed off. I think it would be normal for any employee in type of situation to want the company to be pressured into not taking such action. This doesn't make it right though. It may be more painful to walk away from that position and find employment at another company than it is just to stay put. If that's the case, fine, that is each employee's decision. But again, they're not being forced to stay. If enough employees say enough is enough, the company will have to reevaluate its business model and top manangement may be on the receiving end of those salary cuts. Or, the company may go out of business.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Great guy ? Hmmmm .... now I don't know --- will you accept "high average" ... ???

Good enough.

... and Yes,,,,,, (*stutter*twitch*stutter*) I can. You could too, if you took the time to read up on it --- instead of listening to CEO's who's view is that you and I are "quaint little people" who are only too lucky to have a job provided by "them". To deny the reality of ALPA's place in commercial aviation safety (and not just U.S., either -- international) is a sign of ... what?? No knowledge of airline history? Or perhaps latent --- (*gasp*wheeze*stutter*blink*) --- INSANITY???

I haven't denied what ALPA has done for airline safety. You assume I have. I only put forth the question of whether you were certain that it wouldn't be more safe today if they hadn't been involved. I don't think this is something you, I, or anyone else can say with certainty.

 

[Geese]

We need pilot strikes again. The sad part is that pilot's know strikes will bury the company, but as I said, someone needs to wake up in this industry sooner or later...

 

[saltpeter]

Pilots need to come together as a whole and galvanize into a united position. There's so much infighting that management thrives on having it's employees wrap thesmselves around the axle, fighting amongst themselves to the bitter end.